Box turtles are...Turtles?

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turtlewurx

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This may be a dumb question, but it's something I've wondered about.

As I understand it, Tortoises are land based, Terrapins are land & water, and turtles are water, right? So why is a box turtle a turtle?
 

dmmj

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If i recall correctly terrapins are only in australia.
Box turtles are land and water and fall under turtle, tortoises are land based, despite all of the swimming ones we see on here.
 

turtlemann2

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Eastern Box Turtle (Terrapene carolina) technicly a terrapene but definatly not a tortoise i have heard of them being referred to as tortoise but this was mainly from members in europe, that my input lets see what others have to add

also terrapenes are here in North America, for example the diamond back terrapene of the east coast or DBT
 

EricIvins

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turtlewurx said:
This may be a dumb question, but it's something I've wondered about.

As I understand it, Tortoises are land based, Terrapins are land & water, and turtles are water, right? So why is a box turtle a turtle?

All of those example are really off base.......

There are some fairly aquatic Tortoises, Turtles that are land based, and many combinations of the two.......Terrapin is a generic name for a Turtle, as we see "Terrapin" used world wide to describe many different type of Turtles.......

Basically, if it has Elephantine feet, it's a Tortoise........
 

turtlewurx

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dmmj said:
If i recall correctly terrapins are only in australia.
Box turtles are land and water and fall under turtle, tortoises are land based, despite all of the swimming ones we see on here.

AH... Thanks for the clarification.

Box turtles are land & water? I did not know that. I always thought they were strictly land critters. Hmmm Learn something new every day. Thanks!


EricIvins said:
turtlewurx said:
This may be a dumb question, but it's something I've wondered about.

As I understand it, Tortoises are land based, Terrapins are land & water, and turtles are water, right? So why is a box turtle a turtle?

Basically, if it has Elephantine feet, it's a Tortoise........

Okay, that makes sense, but then, doesn't the box turtle have elephantine feet? Wouldn't that mean it should be called a box tortoise? Not trying to argumentative here, it's just genuine curiosity.
 

GeoTerraTestudo

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Okay, so here is the phylogenetic answer to why box turtles and tortoises are not closely related.

All the turtles of the world are in the Order Testudines. Within this order there are two suborders. Pleurodira has the more ancestral side-necked turtles, and Cryptodira has the more derived hidden-necked turtles. Pleurodira has three living families of turtles surviving today. All the remaining 11 families of turtle are in Cryptodira, and here they are below:

Family Chelydridae - Common and alligator snapping turtles.

Superfamily Chelonioidea contains two families:
Family Cheloniidae - Green, loggerhead, and hawksbill sea turtles
Family Dermochelyidae - Leatherback sea turtle

Superfamily Testudinoidea contains four families:
Family Platysternidae - Big-headed turtle

Family Emydidae - Commonly known as pond turtles or terrapins, this family includes map turtles, painted turtles, red-eared sliders, and others. It also includes the American box turtles (genus Terrapene), and their closest cousins, the wood and spotted turtles (Clemmys), as well as the Holarctic pond turtles (Emys). Judging by the fossil record, American box turtles probably first evolved adaptations for a terrestrial or semi-terrestrial existence some 15 million years ago.

Family Geoemydidae - These turtles are so closely related to Emydidae, that they were once placed in the same family, but have recently been placed in their own. This family includes Asian pond turtles, Asian box turtles (Cuora and Pyxidea), and Neotropical wood turtles. Asian box turtles probably started becoming terrestrial or semi-terrestrial more recently than American box turtles did.

Family Testudinidae - These are the tortoises, which are the most fully terrestrial turtles. This family is thought to have evolved from the Geoemydidae some 50 million years ago. Although both Emydidae and Geoemydidae do have some members that are terrestrial to varying degrees (namely the American and Asian box turtles, respectively), tortoises have more adaptations to life on land than they do because they have been evolving on land much longer.

Superfamily Trionychia contains four families:
Family Carettochelyidae - Pig-nosed turtles
Family Dermatemydidae - River turtles
Family Kinosternidae - Mud and musk turtles
Family Trionychidae - Softshell turtles

So, you see, although the two pond turtle families (Emydidae and Geoemydidae) are more closely related to tortoises than any other types of turtle, they are not in the tortoise family. Hope that helps! :)
 

EricIvins

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turtlewurx said:
dmmj said:
If i recall correctly terrapins are only in australia.
Box turtles are land and water and fall under turtle, tortoises are land based, despite all of the swimming ones we see on here.

AH... Thanks for the clarification.

Box turtles are land & water? I did not know that. I always thought they were strictly land critters. Hmmm Learn something new every day. Thanks!


EricIvins said:
turtlewurx said:
This may be a dumb question, but it's something I've wondered about.

As I understand it, Tortoises are land based, Terrapins are land & water, and turtles are water, right? So why is a box turtle a turtle?

Basically, if it has Elephantine feet, it's a Tortoise........

Okay, that makes sense, but then, doesn't the box turtle have elephantine feet? Wouldn't that mean it should be called a box tortoise? Not trying to argumentative here, it's just genuine curiosity.






No Box Turtles do not have Elephantine feet........Look at an Elephants foot and compare.........Then compare to a Tortoise.......The differences should be very obvious at that point........
 

StudentoftheReptile

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turtlewurx said:
AH... Thanks for the clarification.

Box turtles are land & water? I did not know that. I always thought they were strictly land critters. Hmmm Learn something new every day. Thanks!

I can personally attest that many of the wild box turtles my friends and I find around here in SW Alabama (especially in the hot summer months) are in or around small bodies of water, sometimes completely submerged in water or mud with only their heads poking out.

I think the distinction of being not "aquatic" is that they really don't actually swim or paddle through large or deep bodies of water, like sliders or cooters; they just kinda wade through shallow puddles. Their bodies aren't designed for actual swimming. But as many can attest, most chelonians, whether they be tortoise, terrapins, boxies or sliders, will not hesitate to cool off by submerging in water.

Okay, that makes sense, but then, doesn't the box turtle have elephantine feet? Wouldn't that mean it should be called a box tortoise? Not trying to argumentative here, it's just genuine curiosity.

The term "elephantine foot" may be somewhat relative and subjective. I think it has to do with the precise shape of the heel and whatnot..of course, I'm just reaching here! Maybe someone else more knowledgeable can expand on that point.
 

GeoTerraTestudo

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It is true that the feet of fully aquatic pond turtles are paddle-shaped to help them swim, while those of tortoises are more pillar-like (elephantine) to help them walk. Box turtles have feet that are intermediate between the two, because they are more terrestrial than pond turtles, but less terrestrial than tortoises. Still, their feet are more like those of their pond turtle cousins than those of the more distantly related true tortoises.
 

turtlewurx

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GeoTerraTestudo said:
Okay, so here is the phylogenetic answer to why box turtles and tortoises are not closely related.

...snip...

So, you see, although the two pond turtle families (Emydidae and Geoemydidae) are more closely related to tortoises than any other types of turtle, they are not in the tortoise family. Hope that helps! :)

Sorry to be so dense. I always had a problem with biology classes... and math... but hey, I can draw a pretty picture! or if you want to know about history, I'm your guy!

Anyway, Let me make sure I've got this straight...

In layman's terms, the box turtle is actually a land/water animal (& not just land based, like I thought) & it has more in common, genetically speaking, with the turtle than the tortoise. Do I have it right?

... & by the way, thanks to everyone for takin' the time to try & explain this to me!
 

GeoTerraTestudo

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turtlewurx said:
Anyway, Let me make sure I've got this straight...

In layman's terms, the box turtle is actually a land/water animal (& not just land based, like I thought) & it has more in common, genetically speaking, with the turtle than the tortoise. Do I have it right?

Yep, you got it! :D

I should add that adaptations for terrestrial life vary among different types of American box turtle. For example, there are several subspecies in the species Terrapene carolina. The Eastern (T. carolina carolina) and three-toed (T. carolina triunguis) box turtles can swim and feed in the water, but spend more time on land. In contrast, the Florida (T. carolina bauri) and the Gulf coast (T. carolina major) box turtles are more aquatic, with the Gulf coast subspecies even being able to dive. I'm not sure where the Mexican (T. carolina mexicana) or Yucatan (T. carolina yucatana) box turtles fall on this spectrum, though.

However, in the drier parts of North America, other types of box turtles (same genus, different species) are more terrestrial. Here in Colorado, the ornate box turtle (T. ornata ornata) lives on the prairie, and the desert box turtle (T. ornata luteola), as the name suggests, lives in even more arid habitats.

There are two other species in this genus, too. The Coahuila box turtle (T. coahuila) is also known as the aquatic box turtle, so that tells you how much it loves the water. I'm not sure about the spotted box turtles, though (T. nelsoni nelsoni and T. nelsoni klauber).

So, just within this one genus, there is a variety of preference for drier and wetter habitats among the different species and subspecies.

With tortoises, some species come from drier environments (like the sulcata, leopard, gopher, and Mediterranean tortoises), and some come from wetter environments (redfoots, yellowfoots, and hingebacks). These animals have varying abilities to survive in arid environments, depending on where they come from. For example, arid-land tortoises excrete uric acid in their urine to save water, while moist-land tortoises excrete ammonia and urea (like box turtles), since that's metabolically easier and they can afford to lose more water. However, all tortoises are specialized for moving and feeding efficiently on land.
 

turtlewurx

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GeoTerraTestudo said:
turtlewurx said:
Anyway, Let me make sure I've got this straight...

In layman's terms, the box turtle is actually a land/water animal (& not just land based, like I thought) & it has more in common, genetically speaking, with the turtle than the tortoise. Do I have it right?

Yep, you got it! :D

...snip...

With tortoises, some species come from drier environments (like the sulcata, leopard, gopher, and Mediterranean tortoises), and some come from wetter environments (redfoots, yellowfoots, and hingebacks). These animals have varying abilities to survive in arid environments, depending on where they come from. For example, arid-land tortoises excrete uric acid in their urine to save water, while moist-land tortoises excrete ammonia and urea (like box turtles), since that's metabolically easier and they can afford to lose more water. However, all tortoises are specialized for moving and feeding efficiently on land.

Interesting! I had NO IDEA the box turtle was so varied! I've got a whole new respect for the lil' guys.

We've got LOADS of box turtles in my area, AND lots o' bodies of water. I've even seen quite a few sitting in the water at the edges of ponds, now that I consider it. It's just that when I thought of "TURTLE", R.E. Sliders and sea turtles come to mind. ya know, something swimming majestically through the water. I think our local boxies in the water would be about as graceful as a rock. ...Don't get me wrong, the indigenous boxes are gorgeous, but I can't even picture them swimming, & so I never thought of them as "Turtles". The idea that you could wade about in the shallows & still be a turtle never entered my mind. 8)
 

cmosuna

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turtlewurx said:
This may be a dumb question, but it's something I've wondered about.

As I understand it, Tortoises are land based, Terrapins are land & water, and turtles are water, right? So why is a box turtle a turtle?

A division of reptiles called chelonia includes turtles, tortoises and terrapins. For the most part, the difference between a turtle and a tortoise is more of a matter of semantics than a strict scientific separation. Colloquially, both biologists and laypeople use the word "turtle" to mean all chelonians. In general, the reptiles referred to as turtles live in or near the water and have adapted to swim by holding their breath underwater. The reptiles referred to as tortoises typically live primarily in arid regions and are built for storing their own water supply and walking on sandy ground.

From a biological perspective, a tortoise is a kind of a turtle, but not all turtles are tortoises. Tortoises occupy their own taxonomic family, called testudinidae. All types of land and aquatic turtles come in a wide range of sizes, colors and shapes. Sometimes, the name "terrapin" is used to refer to an animal that falls somewhere between a turtle and a tortoise. Terrapins live in swampy areas or begin life underwater and eventually move to dry land.
Turtles

Turtles can live on land but often live in freshwater, the ocean or brackish ponds and marshland. Their front feet might be fins or merely webbed toes, and they typically have streamlined back feet to help them swim. Some ways in which a turtle and a tortoise are different are that a turtle has a flatter back and might spend much of its life underwater.

A turtle typically mates and lays eggs underwater or on the shore. Some turtles sun themselves on logs, rocks or sandy banks. During cold weather, they often burrow in mud and go into a state called torpor, which is similar to hibernation. Sea turtles migrate great distances. They are often omnivorous, eating plants, insects and fish.
Tortoises

Tortoises live almost entirely above water. They typically wade into water only to clean themselves or to drink. In fact, they cannot swim and could drown in deep water. Unlike sea turtles, tortoises rarely migrate.

A tortoise's feet are hard, scaly and nubby so that it can crawl across sharp rocks and sand. Tortoises often have claws to dig burrows, which they occupy during hot, sunny weather or when they sleep. Their shell forms a rounded dome, allowing the tortoise's limbs and head to withdraw for protection.

Another difference between a turtle and a tortoise is that a tortoise is mostly herbivorous. It typically eats grasses, flowers and weeds. Tortoises also eat shrubs, cacti and other plants that have a lot of moisture. They sometimes eat fruit and leafy greens, especially in captivity. Some tortoises also eat insects, worms and carrion.
 

yagyujubei

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Eventhough box turtles resemble tortoises in some ways, their behavior is strictly turtle-like. Agressive feeders, mostly carnivorous. The hatchlings even look like water turtles. Some spend quite a bit of time in the water. Mine prefer swamp to dry.
 

StudentoftheReptile

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yagyujubei said:
Eventhough box turtles resemble tortoises in some ways....The hatchlings even look like water turtles.

I dunno...I suppose it's all relative, but while I agree their behavior is typically more "turtle-esque," I personally think baby boxies superficially resemble young tortoises, and the resemblance goes both ways between the native gopher tortoise and other species. I've had people seen baby gophers and mistake them for baby boxies. Likewise, I had people over to my house and when they saw my little baby redfoot, they thought it was a baby box turtle.

When I worked at the LPS, I often helped people who found small turtles distinguish baby box turtles from sliders by asking whether it had stripes on the legs and if it had a ridge running down the top of the shell.
 

jojodesca

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Box turtles are land turtles, they can go into the water..but they really cannot swim so basically they need to be able to get out of the water quickly...shallow waters...I have seen video where they were swimming, but basically if they cant reach land they will tire and drown. This is from what I have seen, other ppl might know a bit more
 

StudentoftheReptile

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Of course, the simple answer would be to point to any applicable reptile book or field guide, and emphasize that they all say box turtle, not box tortoise, "....so there!"

Now...I hate it when pet stores label Russian tortoises as "Russian box turtles."
 

GeoTerraTestudo

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StudentoftheReptile said:
Now...I hate it when pet stores label Russian tortoises as "Russian box turtles."

Bump - Yeah, that bugs me, too. When speaking in general terms, I call all chelonians "turtles." However, if I'm talking specifically about that species, I would never refer to it as a type of box turtle.
 

lisa127

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My gulf coast box turtle has webbed back feet. Much more so than my three toed does.
 

Nixxy

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Another defining factor is they are omnivorous.
There feet are completely built differently than a tortoise's, as well.
And while they are mostly terrestrial for most species, they are still semi-aquatic.
 
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