Baby troubles

Yurtle

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Hi. I got a rescue baby box turtle with a very soft shell about 2 months ago. The turtle is a yearling with a SCL of 1.5 inches I've had no issues up to this point. In his previous home which he had lived a year in, was a 20 gallon tank with 4 other box turtles ranging from his size up to turtles with a SCL of 2 inches or so. The turtles received no form UVB for a majority of that year and revived little to no food that had been dusted with vitamins. The troubles I'm having just became apparent in the past few days I've noticed shell abnormalities that weren't presented when I received him, his shell has rapidly gotten the curved look of a turtle with metabolic bone disease.
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I've been keeping by himself in a 20 gallon tank with a UVB light and a ceramic heat emitter. He has several inches of moist eco earth and several hides. I've been feeding him every other day, with foods like: earthworms,mealworms and some turtle pellets dusted with a multivitamin once a week and dusted with calcium at every meal (except when he gets the multivitamin). I'm curious as to why he's now getting the curved shell look and why so rapidly? Is there anything I should change or do? I also suspect a bit of shell rot (likely from me keeping him to humid) on his side marginals, do I just treat this with athletes foot cream or any other anti-fungal?
 

wellington

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I can't help you much, but yes, the athletes foot cream will do. Keep humidity up, but make the top layer dry. You should be feeding every day, specially a baby. I don't know why the curved shell. Maybe @Anthony P can help further
 

Yurtle

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Thanks for the reply, I noticed the the part that's also curved up all the sudden is very very soft, which is really odd that it wasn't like this before. I put some antifungal on the shell rot spots, should I do this once everyday or more/less often?
 

PJay

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You may be just be seeing the results of the poor care it had before you got it catching up now as it grows. Give it good uvb light and a wide range of food and things should improve. What kind of light are you using, a tube flourescent or a mercury vapor bulb? You will need to check the manufacturers recommendation for the most beneficial distance from the bulb to the turtle for proper uvb absorbtion. With some weaker bulbs they need to be as close as 12-14 inches to the turtle.
 

Yurtle

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It's a Zilla Brand UVB 5.0 fluorescent tube that extends about 3/4 of the length of the tank. It's about 9-12 inches away from the turtle.
 

PJay

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Assuming you are using the Zilla T8 5.0, that should be fine according to their UVI chart:

Zilla T8 UVI.PNG

A little real sunlight would help too. Once or twice a week, as the schedule allows, you can put any turtles that stay indoors in a container they can't climb out of, with water up to where the top and bottom shells meet. Place them in an area of part sun/part shade in the yard and sit at a distance where you're not a perceived threat, but can still watch them. Leave them to soak up rays for 15 minutes or so.
 

Yurtle

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At what point would it be appropriate to move him outside to an enclosure for all of summer (I live within T. Carolina's range)?
 

Yurtle

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The shell rot has also spread some other areas and I've been treating it with an antifungal foot cream daily, how long until it goes away? I've added a dry level of substrate on top of the ecoearth, but should I change the whole substrate together? Should I also increase ventilation? I have his tank lid covered with Saran and tin foil (except where his lights go) to help keep the humidity up.
 

lisa127

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The shell rot has also spread some other areas and I've been treating it with an antifungal foot cream daily, how long until it goes away? I've added a dry level of substrate on top of the ecoearth, but should I change the whole substrate together? Should I also increase ventilation? I have his tank lid covered with Saran and tin foil (except where his lights go) to help keep the humidity up.
It should be visibly better by a week's time but continue daily for 2 weeks. I keep my enclosures covered and have no problems. Likely he was sitting in a very wet area for too long. It's not the air humidity. Yes, fresh substrate is a good idea.
 

PJay

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At what point would it be appropriate to move him outside to an enclosure for all of summer (I live within T. Carolina's range)?
Usually a healthy turtle can safely go out in an enclosure alone or with other similar sized turtles at three years.
 

Anthony P

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This is really tough without knowing exactly what is causing the shell to be soft and knowing exactly what is causing the "rot-like" symptoms on the shell. I would use a general antiseptic, diluted with water, on the rot areas. Chlorhexadine is my favorite choice for this, as it is a bit safer for the healthy tissue around the infected areas but still does a great job of cleaning. many here vets use clorhexadine on the majority of their patients.

As for the lighting, I just don't think it is that important in young box turtles. Things like safety and security, humidity and diet are far more important. This species does not bask, especially as neonates, so the direct sun plays little, if any, role in healthy shell development. They do not ask in the sun like young Chrysemys or Trachemys and spend their first years foraging under leaves and debris, where it is extremely humid, if not completely wet.

I will tell you a method I have developed for raising perfect box turtles, and other terrestrial turtles. I use a transparent sterlite tub, filled with half an inch of water and sphagnum moss. I keep the lid on and maybe drill on or two holes for air. In the tub, I place a small hide and sometimes grow pathos ivy. The turtles are basically living in a very shallow aquatic setup. Light is provided, but not UVB, as it wouldn't penetrate the transparent top anyway.

The reason I share this is to provide a different outlook. I think diet and vitamin and calcium supplementation are more important than UVB, and it is more likely that this turtle had been kept to dry or had been fed an improper diet, than it having been kept too wet.
 

lisa127

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This is really tough without knowing exactly what is causing the shell to be soft and knowing exactly what is causing the "rot-like" symptoms on the shell. I would use a general antiseptic, diluted with water, on the rot areas. Chlorhexadine is my favorite choice for this, as it is a bit safer for the healthy tissue around the infected areas but still does a great job of cleaning. many here vets use clorhexadine on the majority of their patients.

As for the lighting, I just don't think it is that important in young box turtles. Things like safety and security, humidity and diet are far more important. This species does not bask, especially as neonates, so the direct sun plays little, if any, role in healthy shell development. They do not ask in the sun like young Chrysemys or Trachemys and spend their first years foraging under leaves and debris, where it is extremely humid, if not completely wet.

I will tell you a method I have developed for raising perfect box turtles, and other terrestrial turtles. I use a transparent sterlite tub, filled with half an inch of water and sphagnum moss. I keep the lid on and maybe drill on or two holes for air. In the tub, I place a small hide and sometimes grow pathos ivy. The turtles are basically living in a very shallow aquatic setup. Light is provided, but not UVB, as it wouldn't penetrate the transparent top anyway.

The reason I share this is to provide a different outlook. I think diet and vitamin and calcium supplementation are more important than UVB, and it is more likely that this turtle had been kept to dry or had been fed an improper diet, than it having been kept too wet.
I agree and I second the chlorhexidine suggestion.

Rot or fungus usually happens from "too wet" but what I found puzzling is that box turtles ate not very prone to it.

I'm wondering if we can see photos of these areas?
 

Turtlesfromcolo

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At what point would it be appropriate to move him outside to an enclosure for all of summer (I live within T. Carolina's range)?
I have 3 yearlings that will be 2 in Oct. Last summer I put them in an outdoor enclosure during the days, but brought them back inside at night. This year I will leave them out all summer.. They love it! It's Very important to have their enclosure set up accurately to their needs. This is just what I do..;)
 

Yurtle

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A small part of one of his scutes is starting to peel away a tiny bit. Should I put neosporin on it? I've also noticed the shell rot has started to get a little bit better.
9ab5097e813d102bdb150c8e58f6157c.jpg
 

PJay

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This is really tough without knowing exactly what is causing the shell to be soft and knowing exactly what is causing the "rot-like" symptoms on the shell. I would use a general antiseptic, diluted with water, on the rot areas. Chlorhexadine is my favorite choice for this, as it is a bit safer for the healthy tissue around the infected areas but still does a great job of cleaning. many here vets use clorhexadine on the majority of their patients.

As for the lighting, I just don't think it is that important in young box turtles. Things like safety and security, humidity and diet are far more important. This species does not bask, especially as neonates, so the direct sun plays little, if any, role in healthy shell development. They do not ask in the sun like young Chrysemys or Trachemys and spend their first years foraging under leaves and debris, where it is extremely humid, if not completely wet.

I will tell you a method I have developed for raising perfect box turtles, and other terrestrial turtles. I use a transparent sterlite tub, filled with half an inch of water and sphagnum moss. I keep the lid on and maybe drill on or two holes for air. In the tub, I place a small hide and sometimes grow pathos ivy. The turtles are basically living in a very shallow aquatic setup. Light is provided, but not UVB, as it wouldn't penetrate the transparent top anyway.

The reason I share this is to provide a different outlook. I think diet and vitamin and calcium supplementation are more important than UVB, and it is more likely that this turtle had been kept to dry or had been fed an improper diet, than it having been kept too wet.
You have a good point Anthony. We rarely see wild Terrapene hatchlings, and only sometimes see juveniles, and then more frequently see adults out in the open where they could be exposed to any significant amounts of UVB. At what point with your method do you believe it is important to start introducing UVB to captive turtles?
 

Eric Phillips

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It doesn't matter if they are basking directly in the sunlight or hiding under a leaf, they are seeing the wavelengths of UVA and absorbing UVB from the light outdoors. I respectfully disagree that natural light isn't important for the development of young box turtles at an early age. It is essential for the turtle to develop Vitamin D on its own not get supplemented. The other problem is with the Zilla hood, if the plastic cover is not removed then your little one will not be receiving any UVB from the bulb. The plastic blocks the UVB. I also suggest next time to go on amazon and order a hood and a reptisun t8 5.0. You can get a hood for $10 and the bulb usually on sale for $19.99(18 inch). I just got 2 of them a few months ago and your getting a better bulb. I also suggest a purchase of Black Soldier Fly Larvae(Calci-Worms) to incorporate into its diet. The added calcium from these maggots will greatly help. Phoenix Worms is an excellent supplier that I would suggest and lastly get it outside for 20 minutes a day soaking in a water tub where the water is just up to its marginal scutes. I bet it will turn around no time so long as you follow the correct diet plan.
 

Markw84

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I'll add my two cents worth and say I've raised a lot of healthy aquatic turtles in the past, with very little to no UVB provided. I find dietary vitamin D is the key with aquatics, especially hatchlings. The sooner you can get them eating good foods with Calcium and D, the better they do. Added UVB light seems to do little if the diet is not right. Hatchlings are cryptic animals and live in the weeds and aquatic plants in shallow water. They are mainly carnivore/insectivore at this stage and do need some plant matter or Vit A deficiency will come into play. Many perceived RI problems are what I believe to be Vit A problems with hatchling aquatics. I start all my hatchling of all species pretty close to what @Anthony P is describing. I do use water for most (do not raise box turtles) that is a bit deeper at 2x shell length. Get them eating the right things and you will not see these issues.

I do not see shell rot. I see partially separated scute edges with calcium deposits.

I have found the outer shell curling upwards in aquatics is directly related to being too dry. Coupled with poor D3 and calcium in the diet it is worse as the bone softens. Interestingly related - tortoise will pyramid because all the growth of new keratin is only at scute seams, and dry conditions force growth downward creating valleys. Aquatic turtles lay new keratin along the entire undersurface of the scutes as they grow, and dry conditions cause the tops to dry more than "normal" while the bottom is growing. The edges of the shell will begin to curl upward.
 

Tvansant

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This is really tough without knowing exactly what is causing the shell to be soft and knowing exactly what is causing the "rot-like" symptoms on the shell. I would use a general antiseptic, diluted with water, on the rot areas. Chlorhexadine is my favorite choice for this, as it is a bit safer for the healthy tissue around the infected areas but still does a great job of cleaning. many here vets use clorhexadine on the majority of their patients.

As for the lighting, I just don't think it is that important in young box turtles. Things like safety and security, humidity and diet are far more important. This species does not bask, especially as neonates, so the direct sun plays little, if any, role in healthy shell development. They do not ask in the sun like young Chrysemys or Trachemys and spend their first years foraging under leaves and debris, where it is extremely humid, if not completely wet.

I will tell you a method I have developed for raising perfect box turtles, and other terrestrial turtles. I use a transparent sterlite tub, filled with half an inch of water and sphagnum moss. I keep the lid on and maybe drill on or two holes for air. In the tub, I place a small hide and sometimes grow pathos ivy. The turtles are basically living in a very shallow aquatic setup. Light is provided, but not UVB, as it wouldn't penetrate the transparent top anyway.

The reason I share this is to provide a different outlook. I think diet and vitamin and calcium supplementation are more important than UVB, and it is more likely that this turtle had been kept to dry or had been fed an improper diet, than it having been kept too wet.
Hi, Im reading this post as I'm looking for set up ideas for my new turtle. Would you happen to have, and if you do, would you mind to share, photos of the tub habitat you mentioned above ? Thanks so much !! Tracy :)
 

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