Hopefully this works. Lucy's X-rays. @zovick @Yvonne G @Tom @Markw84 @deadheadvet @tortadise @Pearly
There's more I want to alert and can't think of them. Any others chime in please.
ANYONE HAVE TO USE OXYTOCIN ON TORTOISE
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Hopefully this works. Lucy's X-rays. @zovick @Yvonne G @Tom @Markw84 @deadheadvet @tortadise @Pearly
There's more I want to alert and can't think of them. Any others chime in please.
I was never very good about human plain xrays, i much rather look at contrasted tomographic scans or magnetic resonanse type pictures. Never mind tortoises! Sorry! What does stand out is the last picture, those low lying eggs... there is a hard structure on the bottom where they sit. What are they pressing on? @ zovick? Please sir would you look at those?
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She may be having some pain or at least an uneasy feeling due to these 6 eggs being retained whether ectopically or not which is causing her not to want to put weight on her legs. Id she doesn't put weight on them, will she dig a nest with them? I tend to doubt it.
The nesting history described above is not normal by any stretch of the imagination. There is something amiss with the tortoise if she doesn't simply dig a nest, lay her eggs, bury them, and walk away. Dropping eggs on the ground surface is a sign something isn't right, either with the tortoise herself or the area she has been provided in which to lay. I believe that the most recent clutch was going to be 11 eggs and she laid 5, then stopped for some reason. Did she cover up the nest or just walk away? Were the eggs all in the nest or were some on the surface?
I think possibly an ultrasound might be helpful in figuring out what treatment is necessary which is one reason I suggested having a vet school or a good reptile vet check her out.
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The eggs appear to be in the same area of the body where my friend's Radiated Tortoise eggs were. Those were in her bladder as mentioned earlier. This may be a similar case. Again, I would say that a visit to good reptile vet is in order.
there does appear to be a small concretion (stone) possibly blocking the egg which seems to be the closest egg to the vent, depending upon which way the intestines is going. You can't see any soft tissue with this x-ray. Although it seems small enough to pass, and smaller than the egg, maybe combined with the egg it creates a "sticking point".??
Doesn't look like pressure on the spine. Tend to agree with Bill - discomfort is likely causing her not to want to lift up.
Doesn't look like pressure on the spine. Tend to agree with Bill - discomfort is likely causing her not to want to lift up.
When she does dig a nest she does it beginning to end.
She has also in the past dug test holes. Both inside and her outside area, she will dig a nest or sometimes she doesn't dig. She probably has laid 2-4 clutches not in nest. Her very first two ever clutches were not in a nest. Then I think it was her 4 or 5 one was not in a nest The rest after that has been and now this time.
Should I still stay away from the oxytocin? She did eat good today.
She has also in the past dug test holes. Both inside and her outside area, she will dig a nest or sometimes she doesn't dig. She probably has laid 2-4 clutches not in nest. Her very first two ever clutches were not in a nest. Then I think it was her 4 or 5 one was not in a nest The rest after that has been and now this time.
Should I still stay away from the oxytocin? She did eat good today.
I did ask the vet about the spot I think your talking about. Vet wasn't concerned with it.
What would be the rationale of using oxytocin now please? Do the eggs deteriorate after certain time unless they are out? This is all very interesting.
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This is interesting to read. This is what I did.
Last year when the 60 pound Manouria emys phayrei was dribbling eggs out, we had her radiographed and there was still some 40plus eggs in her. None looked abnormal. I guess if some eggs are fused they can cause serious problems, or strange shaped eggs. But all looked normal.
It is though by some that blood calcium needs to be elevated as all those muscles that will 'spasm' use calcium as nerve to nerve conductors.
So pre-oxytocin she was given 3 TUMS per day for two days. The syringes were loaded with 3 CC (ml) each and were injected in the front leg on the 'neck side'. One dose led to egg laying in about an hour and half. She continued laying for a few hours. When the egg count laid was about a dozen less than showed up in the radiograph, we gave her a second syringe of 3 CC. She laid a few more but then it stopped. The eggs are in what could be called a single file line, so those last eggs had much further to travel than the first few. Over the next few days she dribble the last few out.
So a total of 6 CC for a 60 pound tortoise pre-conditioned with an short increase in calcium.
Last year when the 60 pound Manouria emys phayrei was dribbling eggs out, we had her radiographed and there was still some 40plus eggs in her. None looked abnormal. I guess if some eggs are fused they can cause serious problems, or strange shaped eggs. But all looked normal.
It is though by some that blood calcium needs to be elevated as all those muscles that will 'spasm' use calcium as nerve to nerve conductors.
So pre-oxytocin she was given 3 TUMS per day for two days. The syringes were loaded with 3 CC (ml) each and were injected in the front leg on the 'neck side'. One dose led to egg laying in about an hour and half. She continued laying for a few hours. When the egg count laid was about a dozen less than showed up in the radiograph, we gave her a second syringe of 3 CC. She laid a few more but then it stopped. The eggs are in what could be called a single file line, so those last eggs had much further to travel than the first few. Over the next few days she dribble the last few out.
So a total of 6 CC for a 60 pound tortoise pre-conditioned with an short increase in calcium.
I would think oxytocin is contra indicated here now. Seems to be other things going on. with her history of poor egg laying ability/desire and Bill's seemingly similar experience with a torn bladder would make a ultrasound or more definitive look a better option. I do think that looks like a concretion I would also want a more definitive answer on.
Are you thinking a secretion like in a egg leaking?
She did prescribe a prescription liquid calcium. However, it has to be made up through the pharmacy and it won't be ready for pick up until Monday. I am upping her calcium until then with the cactus and I can also do the tums. She is eating much better, twice already today a handful of romaine for extra hydration and some Mazuri. I am going to give her more cactus later today. I will get some tums in that mixture.
No that wasn't spell check, I did mean Concretion - a solid mass. A bladder stone.
Okay, at this point I can only do supportive until next week. I not only have to go out of state, but can't get into the vet at the clinic that is more experienced with torts then the one I seen until then either.
Other then the not using the back legs, she is eating good and has her head out until I spook her. She's not one of my social ones.
I also don't understand the abnormal egg laying mentioned several times. I was told it can be fairly normal in a young tort. Those eggs that were never nested for were all soft except these last ones and she never had a problem getting them out. Just never happened all at once like the ones she does nest for.
Can someone explain why it's viewed as poor egg laying history please?
Other then the not using the back legs, she is eating good and has her head out until I spook her. She's not one of my social ones.
I also don't understand the abnormal egg laying mentioned several times. I was told it can be fairly normal in a young tort. Those eggs that were never nested for were all soft except these last ones and she never had a problem getting them out. Just never happened all at once like the ones she does nest for.
Can someone explain why it's viewed as poor egg laying history please?
Oops, sorry, I just didn't even read it right. I had secretion on the brain cuz it's so close to an egg, that's what I thought it was when I pointed it out to the vet.
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I am in agreement with Mark. I would not use oxytocin on this particular tortoise now knowing all of her history and having seen the radiographs unless it were done under a veterinarian's care. I would also recommend that said care would best be done by a certified exotics vet.
I can't provide any advice to help with your current situation, but perhaps some family history might help a bit with understand the big picture or rule out potential issues.
The egg development frequency you have described seems almost identical to the mother, so these eggs may not be left-overs from the last clutch. The mother of your tortoise is also relatively small at about 20lbs and around 11 inches. Despite her size, she is heavy producer laying small clutches of 6 - 8 eggs, but every 2 - 3 weeks. The highest number of clutches in one year she has laid was 9, with the average being 6.
The surface egg-laying and not using the back legs is obviously not normal. I experience surface egg laying with all of my females, but it's usually one or two eggs and only at the very beginning of egg laying season. It doesn't happen again until next season starts.
The egg development frequency you have described seems almost identical to the mother, so these eggs may not be left-overs from the last clutch. The mother of your tortoise is also relatively small at about 20lbs and around 11 inches. Despite her size, she is heavy producer laying small clutches of 6 - 8 eggs, but every 2 - 3 weeks. The highest number of clutches in one year she has laid was 9, with the average being 6.
The surface egg-laying and not using the back legs is obviously not normal. I experience surface egg laying with all of my females, but it's usually one or two eggs and only at the very beginning of egg laying season. It doesn't happen again until next season starts.
Thanks Neal, Lucy does sound a lot like her mother. I have kept Lucy from the males this spring/summer so far, except a couple days when someone, pushed their way through the fence, darn boys. However, they were on the side of her not where they were suppose to be LOL. If my memory is correct, lots going on here, she has not had any eggs yet this year until the ones laid last week and now the ones she's carrying. Not sure when egg laying season is. Her very first two every clutches were in the first June 2015 they were both surface dropped and about 2-3 weeks apart. Then she nested and laid in August and again in September and again October all in dug nest. Then she had some surface eggs twice during the winter and she didn't have a proper nesting spot. Didn't think she would lay in the winter. That was all in 2015. Finally found my records of 2015. Can't find last years. I'm bad at record keeping. Last year, 2016 she did have 4-5 clutches but none were fertile. All dug and nested. Not sure of the months though.
Her nesting ones all seemed about a month or so apart. The surface ones were all closer together, but came out a few at a time and about 2 weeks apart.
Very interesting to know there maybe a genetic component to her pattern, leaving me to put all emphasis on looking into the issue with those hind legs. Still with that I'd like to get some more in depth imaging done, unless between now and Monday she drops all the eggs and her legs get back to normal. Then we know that this has to do with how she carries her gravid belly. I'm also curious why would the vet dismiss the calculus-looking object on the X-rays...
