about the bugs in the substrate

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Kapidolo Farms

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In a 2002 Radiata (volume 11, issue 3, page 41), the author Hans-Jurgen Bidmon suggests the use of neem oil applied to the substrate before putting it in the enclosure to eliminate any insect population from growing.

This would not work with a bioactive-substrate, but otherwise is seems like a reasonable solution.

The article is entitled "A 'Runny Nose' of the Runny Nose Syndrome (RNS)? Practical experiences with Indian Star tortoises"

Hans-Jurgen says that the exoskeleton of some mites is causing an irritation to the nostrils of his redfoots and they run, with a constant discharge. The solution was a substrate change and adding neem oil, no mites, and no more RNS.

This is a very simple overview of the article. Do any of you use neem oil in your enclosures for any reason?

I would like to see this cross posted into the health area as well, but we'll see what response other TFO people have with this practice here in the substrate sub-forum.

Will
 

wellington

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Thanks Will, i am very excited about this. I don't use anything in my substrate. However, I would love to try this neem oil. My Leo doesn't have the runny nose problem, but I do not like the bugs. I haven't heard of This oil. Do you or anyone know where, what type of store, to get it, other then online?
 

tortadise

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Did perhaps the literature of the article state which substrates were in the "test". I know of many keepers using only eucalyptus mulch specifically for this reason. Id be curious if the eucalyptus mulch theory is fairytale or legitimate. Ive never used this oil.
 

jjsull33

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Neem oil is an organic oil used as a spray or soil drench for gardens, it keeps bugs off of the plants or in the soil so I can see it working for this purpose(as this is what you're trying to do)

You can get neem oil at any hydroponic supply store, and I would assume Home Depot and the like.

As a word of warning since it is an oil if its sprayed on plants while lights are on it will heat up enough to burn / damage the leaves where the oil is sitting, I wonder if it would do this to a torts shell as well if they dug in and got it on them.
 

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Would you have to treat the whole area or could you treat the out area, around the enclosure walls, where the tort doesn't go quite as much? Does it kill the bugs, or just keep them away? My enclosure is a closet, opened to the main living area of us humans. If the bugs wanted, they could walk right out into my carpet. They don't of course, there's nothing there for them. But, if it doesn't kill the bugs, then they would probably move onto the carpet and that's when there would be a big problem. I would need it to kill the bugs. Anyone know?
 

jjsull33

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I'm not quite sure how exactly it works as a soil drench, I'm more familiar with its use as a spray onto the leaves of plants, but I work next to a hydroponics supply store and I have to go there on Fridays to get supplies for the store I work at (convenient placement).
I'll see if I can get a picture of the instructions on the bottle of neem oil while I'm there and post it after work.
 

wellington

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jjsull33 said:
I'm not quite sure how exactly it works as a soil drench, I'm more familiar with its use as a spray onto the leaves of plants, but I work next to a hydroponics supply store and I have to go there on Fridays to get supplies for the store I work at (convenient placement).
I'll see if I can get a picture of the instructions on the bottle of neem oil while I'm there and post it after work.

That would be great, thank you. I would love to see if its something that would work for not only me, but lots of members that hate having the little bug critters.
 

Kapidolo Farms

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I did not post the whole article as I could not find an open source for it, there may be one, I did not find it.

I have subsequently looked for more information about neem oil and there is lots and lots of it out there. I see Orchid and "pot" growers like it as it is not toxic to vertebrates. The suggested use from the cited article is to mix some ground neem tree bark into your substrate or apply some unspecified amount of oil to the substrate. The examples with photos in the article are packaged with German writing, but both ground bark and oil are shown.

I imagine that a little goes a long way, orchid growers who use real and artificial light list dilutions for application to the orchid plants themselves, so that might mediate a sunburn based concern.

Kelly as for Eucalyptus, I used that for flea control with dogs and cats by putting leaves in pillow cases where the pet liked to sleep. It would work while the smell was strong, but seemed to loose effecting the fleas pretty quick. I have not tried it with tortoises as a substrate. I like small and medium particle orchid bark, and the coconut husk. The small insects I get look like wood decomposing thrips or something similar, and they swarm the food plate.

I tried using sticky traps folded over some toothpicks, so a gap was available for the bugs to get in, they do, but there are just to many. I put the substrate in a bag with a vapoma trip, that worked OK, but the small bugs re-invade the substrate pretty quick.

I'm going to try the neem oil at recommended rates of application for orchids, on one enclosure and see what happens. I'll report back in a week or two.

I think the small thrips like bugs inhibit the tortoises eating, maybe not.

Will
 

jjsull33

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So I couldn't find the soil drench instructions, they only had spray bottles today, I took some pictures anyway which ill attach, and ill check again on Monday to see if they have one for drenching

I attached 2 pictures, let me know if the text is too small to read and ill attach again in a better quality


I can't seem to get my phone to upload the pictures ill try emailing them to my computer but it'll take me a few before I can upload them here
 

Kapidolo Farms

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The use rate I found is from <http://www.rollitup.org/bugs/323121-how-neem-oil-flush-soil.html> a "pot" growers webpage.

That rate <1 tbl spoon/gallon. add till soil is drenched> is what I have used with a drop of dishwashing soap to help emulsify the oil.

I have been using that as a spray on the substrate surface. So far the small bugs are not swarming the food plate, but are still present. I did not change out the substrate, I just turn it frequently looking for eggs. The bugs are staying away from the food plate. They are so small I only see them when they walk, so until I see no walking around bugs, I know some are alve. It is near impossible to see them dead in the substrate itself.

Will
 

wellington

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So, at least we know it will keep them away. That's good. I am really interested in if it kills them. I hope you get that as a result too. Keep us posted. Thanks for doing this too.
 

Kapidolo Farms

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So today is the third day I have sprayed the solution into the substrate. I no longer see any living insects, which I described as small thrips like insects.

I bought Dyna Grow 100% pure neem oil ($12 for 8 fluid ounces) from a hydroponics store and mixed it into warm water at the rate of 1 tablespoon for one gallon of mix. I also added about 1 teaspoon of dishwashing liquid soap, so the oil would emulsify. The spray is directed onto the substrate, and not any furniture, the animals themselves, or their water supply. I used a small pump sprayer so that the pumping would keep the oil in suspension as well as the soap. When I made the mix I filled a one gallon jug 3/4 full, added the oil and soap, shook it well, them filled the jug the rest of the way. I see I have to shake it every time I want to put some in the sprayer. I am finding it is best to put less in the sprayer than needed for one application, that way the pumping of the sprayer keeps it mixed, and whatever is left over I put back in the gallon jug from a 2nd or 3rd filling.

Longer term we will see if there is an effect on the tortoises, but so far they have no apparent problem, and the fact that those little insects do not swarm the food or tortoise face is a good thing.

Will
 

wellington

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Glad it's working. So, now are you going to stop using it and see how long it takes for them to come back, if they do? Also, are you using this on an indoor enclosure or just outdoor enclosure?
Thanks
 

mainey34

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I have been using need oil on indoor and outdoor plants for 6 months now. It doesn't work. You have to spray daily. The oil sticks to their wings so they cannot fly. But the next day you will see them flying around again. I personally would not feel comfortable spraying neem oil on my torts substrate.
 

Kapidolo Farms

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I found the neem as described in this thread for preparation for tortoise substrate to have effectively made aphids stay off of hibiscus on my balcony.

Here is another star tortoise pub that is open access <http://www.schildkroeten-im-fokus.de/pdf/2012_3ivanchev_en.pdf> where the author references the Bidmon article that I mention in post #1.

I am using it on indoor substrate, I don't have outdoor areas right now.

Your observation and conclusion don't make sense to me as posted mainey34, I'd like to get a better understanding of what you are saying. Insects won't grow new wings overnight, and so how does the oil get off the wings? Do you think they clean it off, or it just evaporates or something? 6 months is a long time to use something that is not working, yes? I sprayed aphids on Friday on some hibiscus outside, they seem to be gone. There is still what looks like a residue of the spray there, today (Sunday). The application directions on the bottle suggest twice the concentration that I used, and re-application every 7 days. How do you know they are not new bugs flying around, as opposed to the same which may have survived the neem treatment?

Most insects have multiple life stages, so re-application every few days would make sense at the beginning of a regiem, and outside if new bugs can keep coming from another source.

I think the bugs in the orchid bark, were already in the bark, and spread to other enclosures. I will treat it in the future before placing it in the enclosures, and/or baking it to kill off insect eggs or nymphs.

Will
 

jjsull33

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sorry it took me a while to get these pictures on here (comp troubles over the weekend) and it would seem you may not need these pictures anymore since people are trying it already but ill attach them anyway.

photo (3).JPG

photo (4).JPG

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I checked the store again they still are out of straight neem oil
 
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Kapidolo Farms

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Hi JJsull33,

That is 70% neem oil and 30% "other ingredients"??

That is what I found in most places, but I went to Miramar Hydroponics and they had several forms, so I got the 100% as shown here.

20130417_104257.jpg

I did not make it as strong as suggested, and it still seems to be working. I used one tablespoon per gallon Neem oil, and one teaspoon liquid dish detergent.

So far so good, and all those damn little bugs are gone.

Will
 
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