A Better Way to Sex Tortoises

tglazie

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So, I recently learned from deadheadvet and more informed members than myself exactly what is entailed in an endoscopy, specifically, a veterinary process to determine the sex of a sexually immature tortoise. For those unaware, sexing hatchling tortoises is impossible. And sexing sexually immature tortoises remains impossible for varying periods of time. Some tortoises remain relatively easy to sex at a relatively young age, while others remain difficult to sex until a flashing incident occurs or an infertile egg drops from the cloaca.

This is a challenge to all the biologists out there. We need a better way to sex tortoises. A relatively inexpensive, consumer friendly way. Gone must be the days of giving hatchlings gender neutral names. I can't tell how many of my friends tortoises I've met with names like Terry, Frankie, Gerry, Pattie, or Jo, or how many Lorettas became Larrys, or how many Stephanies became Stephens, or Harrys became Harriets. Inquiring minds want to know, what is the sex of my hatchilng sulcata? What should I name my baby Russian? What color hidebox should I get for my hatchling's closed chamber? Surely we can determine this with a simple tissue test. It would be totally awesome if we could use some kind of reader, like a temp gun or a UV meter, that can determine the sex of a tortoise. That would be so great if I could just get a gadget on Amazon, point it at my tortoise, and have it say "male" or "female." I would totally buy something like this, especially if it was less than a thousand bucks. A noninvasive sex test (don't giggle, ya'll) would be the best.

Sorry to engage in a flight of fancy, and I know I've probably said this before, but after having gotten into rads this year, I can't stop thinking about it, and I mean, I can't be the only one who wants something like this. Everyone wants to know whether they've got a boy or a girl when they've got a hatchling, and if we had this, we could finally get Tom to stop answering our queries with "Yes, it's definitely a boy or a girl." I mean, it would just be better for everyone.

T.G.
 

JoesMum

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Seriously, I can't be bothered with it.

I wasn't the type who wanted to know the genders of my children when they were still in my womb. A surprise on the day was just fine.

With a tort, you get what you get. There's a reason they can't be sexed young... they're immature and you have years to wait until they can breed. If you need to know then get a mature one.
 

Speedy-1

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I just wanted one Sulcata to keep as a pet , and was totally unconcerned as to gender ! I really have not spent that many sleepless nights tossing and turning over important decisions like painting a night box pink or blue .
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His/her , she or him (shim ?) is named Speedy and will stay that way !
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tglazie

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I can understand these sentiments given that ya'll have a single tortoise. However, when I first started with the margies, I was attempting to raise a breeding colony from hatchlings. As a result, I acquired twenty five margies to arrive at my 3.3 group. Several died as a result of my early incompetence, given that back in those days, it wasn't common knowledge that hatchlings required humidity, not dryness, to survive. And when it comes to margies, females are very hard to find, especially when I was first starting out in my days before I stumbled upon the forum. Nobody in South Texas that I knew was raising this particular species, and you were lucky to see one at a herp show maybe once every three years. So, back then, my solution was to simply purchase every hatchling marginated tortoise I could get my hands on in the hopes of some of them growing into promising females. This would have been so much easier if I had a device that could determine this.

T.G.
 

Speedy-1

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I can understand these sentiments given that ya'll have a single tortoise. However, when I first started with the margies, I was attempting to raise a breeding colony from hatchlings. As a result, I acquired twenty five margies to arrive at my 3.3 group. Several died as a result of my early incompetence, given that back in those days, it wasn't common knowledge that hatchlings required humidity, not dryness, to survive. And when it comes to margies, females are very hard to find, especially when I was first starting out in my days before I stumbled upon the forum. Nobody in South Texas that I knew was raising this particular species, and you were lucky to see one at a herp show maybe once every three years. So, back then, my solution was to simply purchase every hatchling marginated tortoise I could get my hands on in the hopes of some of them growing into promising females. This would have been so much easier if I had a device that could determine this.

T.G.

I can understand your frustration trying to develop a breeding group under those circumstances . Buying one as a pet was so much easier , all I had to concern myself with was finding a healthy active tortoise.
 

tglazie

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Yes, but don't get me wrong, it's not just about forming a breeding group. I'm one of those people who simply must know. I was the kid shaking the Christmas presents on Christmas eve, the one who was trying to gently peal away the gift wrap so that I could put it back without anyone suspecting. I've resigned myself to not knowing when it comes to baby tortoises, but it is a grudging resignation. I want to know. If I have a less invasive, less costly way of knowing than an endoscopy, I would definitely be interested in it. I mean, I certainly can pick apart my need to know via logic, given that people plan and the heavens erupt in laughter, but still, I want to know.

T.G.
 

Speedy-1

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Yes, but don't get me wrong, it's not just about forming a breeding group. I'm one of those people who simply must know. I was the kid shaking the Christmas presents on Christmas eve, the one who was trying to gently peal away the gift wrap so that I could put it back without anyone suspecting. I've resigned myself to not knowing when it comes to baby tortoises, but it is a grudging resignation. I want to know. If I have a less invasive, less costly way of knowing than an endoscopy, I would definitely be interested in it. I mean, I certainly can pick apart my need to know via logic, given that people plan and the heavens erupt in laughter, but still, I want to know.

T.G.
Like the National Enquirer "enquiring minds need to know" !
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tglazie

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Exactly. I should have gone to work for TMZ or someone like that. Unfortunately, I prefer to earn my living honestly.

T.G.
 

G-stars

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If I've learned anything from tortoises is that patience is a virtue.

I takes years to find out the sex of a tortoise. It takes longer for them to be a reproductive age. And then for the eggs to hatch can feel like an eternity.
 

tglazie

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Absolutely right, G-stars. Unfortunately, it is a virtue I often lack, I'm afraid. I've always found it funny that my old man, who got me into tortoises, was always so patient, whereas I took after my mother, impatient as an incompetent, overly frustrated schoolmaster. It's a quality I've had to learn, and I've always been something of a slow learner, sad to say. Despite this lack of patience, though, I did manage to raise a healthy group of breeding margies, after decades of frustrating setbacks and mistakes, but I did manage to make it work in the end. Keeping it working is the trick, but it is definitely easier than those first years, when I was a kid bumping around in the dark, reading all the nonsense that was out there, before the forum came along a shine a light.

T.G.
 

tglazie

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Hey, if magic works, that's awesome. Point me in the direction of the apothecary or alchemist who deals in such sacred objects.

T.G.
 

Maverick

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It would be cool if someone developed a DNA test that you could send off to get tested. Of coarse it would have to be relatively cheap.... But hey we can dream.
 

GingerLove

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I am totally with you @tglazie! I just HAVE to know!! I want to know, I must know, I need to know!! It changes my entire perspective of the tortoise and I'm not sure why. My torts name was either going to be "Loki" or "Ginger" and I found out five minutes after I got her by searching various internet sites. Isn't there a way to incubate the eggs with different temperatures to make it more likely that they are a girl or a boy? That would be nice if the breeders could just tell you which batch the egg came from. I was so happy when I found out my tort was a girl, I finally had a little sister. ;) Now we can chat about girl things and wear pink and eat chocolate. :D
 

wellington

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I agree and I want one. Work on inventing it for us that do breed. Those of you that don't, you don't understand how hard it is playing the guessing game. I'm not even a big breeder,barely can be considered a breeder at all yet, which might make it harder not knowing. I don't have the room to buy or keep a bunch for years to see if I get a female or two.
As for buying older ones. You do understand the older they are the price is way up. I'm not even trying to breed to make money, just help out with some cost plus the fun of it. But buying high to sell low is bad investing.
So whoever can event this test or tool, I'm in for one.
 

dmmj

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the biggest problem I see this is a very small Market I can't imagine the initial cost to do something like this with a very small return on investment
 

tglazie

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GingerLove, temp sexing isn't fool proof, as I can attest having purchased more than my fair share of temp sexed female marginated tortoises only to end up with far more males in my purchase history than females. Wellington is also correct that adult tortoises are generally very expensive. There's also the fact that most of the adult animals you see for sale aren't always the best animals. For every outstanding adult animal I see for sale, I generally see five or six highly pyramided animals that will probably arrive at my door with a series of bad habits I will have to see broken. Those with the exceptional adult animals know this and often charge accordingly (don't get me wrong, many forum members are unbelievably generous and don't do this). However, if you're browsing on Kingsnake or one of the various reptile dealer sites, you're going to have to pay up.

As to dmmj's point, yes, that is a significant barrier. What would be cool is if we could make this a cross species thing, if we could make it work for bearded dragons, ball pythons, corn snakes, leopard geckos, and red eared sliders (not that anyone needs to be breeding red eared sliders, but there are a fair number of folks who would want to know the gender of their animal). Granted, it is still a small market, but I'm sure it would be handy in zoos as well as in field research. It would be awesome if you could aim this device at a group of basking turtles and figure out a rough male/female ratio in a given habitat. I'm sure this could be of value in some regard. Too bad it would seem to require a sorcerer to see it made.

T.G.
 

Gillian M

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In this part of the world, one does NOT choose the tort he/she gets. Therefore, it dos not matter whether it's a male or a female.
 

SanctuaryHills

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I agree and I want one. Work on inventing it for us that do breed. Those of you that don't, you don't understand how hard it is playing the guessing game. I'm not even a big breeder,barely can be considered a breeder at all yet, which might make it harder not knowing. I don't have the room to buy or keep a bunch for years to see if I get a female or two.
As for buying older ones. You do understand the older they are the price is way up. I'm not even trying to breed to make money, just help out with some cost plus the fun of it. But buying high to sell low is bad investing.
So whoever can event this test or tool, I'm in for one.
I know I'm resurrecting a post from the depths of hell but I wonder if any lead-way has been made in this field. DNA testing seems like it would be the ideal method. I just sorta assume that this is the type of thing the right herpetogist could do.

Are there really no labs that would do this for a fee? Maybe even a local university?
 

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