Coconut Oil

Alaskamike said:

I keep reading the updates on this thread. Thinking I don't need to comment anymore , just wait and see what results are over time. And that is really what I will do ,

But your comment about absorption is interesting. I know keratin is porous, but it would surprise me if absorption increased the more often applied I have no idea why this might be so. Anyone hazard a guess ?

And if this is in fact happening , what are the potential effects on the tortoise ?

EVCO is soluble fat , among other things. I assume it is absorbed in my skin when applied. It doesn't evaporate easily or quickly.

As I stated before. The first time I tried it , 2 weeks later water still beaded up on their shells, in ways it did not before application.

Is it possible frequent application is making the keratin more permeable ?
And if so , does this have a potential downside ? Wow , I really don't have the science for that question.

Click to expand...

To me, the beading of water would be an indicator of an inability to absorb water. Hydration is the saturation of water, (hydro) not of fats oils or wax, regardless of these three items absorption rates. I would hazard a guess that natural, organically sourced, raw, bees wax would also be absorbed into the keratin in the warm environments we provide our tortoises. Would this then be an indicator of hydration? Of course not.

Ken. Good point.
I'm not advocating this treatment. But if I understand the principle suggested by the OP it is to reduce evaporative moisture loss from the shell under UVB. In other words , keep moisture in , not out.

Presumably our tortoises get their hydration for their entire biology from drinking water. Some is absorbed through skin in soaks also. But I would think this would be minor compared to drinking.

We use high humidity to reduce lass of water through skin and shell - right?
And I guess also to keep shell flexible enough for smooth growth

I really am asking here. I feel like there is something missing in my understanding of the hydration issue.
Maybe I just don't get it straight in my head yet.

but

AbdullaAli said:

Puff, the cause of pyramiding is lack of humidity... I'd suggest you start a thread about it to make sure Queen Anne is actually pyramiding and how to fix it.

Click to expand...

Queen Anne is at present indisposed due to inclement weather we are experiencing of late , i. e. no sun. As soon as climatic circumstances improve I shall endeavour to persuade Her Maj to sit for a portrait,

glitch4200 said:

Good I'm glad you're not totally convinced. It will take many more months maybes years and many other accounts to prove this to convince. I am glad I caught your interest though and others interest as well. I have only the best intentions with this.

Click to expand...

Members using and recommending EVCO is not new on this Forum. Here is a thread from over a year ago:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/olive-oil.82167/
There are undoubtedly other post in threads about VitaShell or other lotions.
Although I haven't seen post from BeeBee or Sandy (two members that have some history usinf EVCO) in a few months, perhaps you could PM them to get some of their experience with applying EVCO. They seem to have been using it for a longer period of time

Cowboy_Ken said:

To me, the beading of water would be an indicator of an inability to absorb water. Hydration is the saturation of water, (hydro) not of fats oils or wax, regardless of these three items absorption rates. I would hazard a guess that natural, organically sourced, raw, bees wax would also be absorbed into the keratin in the warm environments we provide our tortoises. Would this then be an indicator of hydration? Of course not.

Click to expand...

If natural bees wax had moisturizing properties and benefits to keratin you may be on to something haha. You never know. Lol

I mean when I soak my tortoise the shell isn't covered in water. The shell beading off water really shouldn't have much affect on how much water the tortoise is absorbing when very little of the shell is under water. He drinks almost every time I bath him which happens 4x a week and every rare once in awhile he drinks from his dish haha. I feel this helps keep moisture in and help moisturize the shell too . Really only time will tell. His applications have been steady. And my instagram has been a great place to keep my documentation through pics.

Alaskamike said:

Ken. Good point.
I'm not advocating this treatment. But if I understand the principle suggested by the OP it is to reduce evaporative moisture loss from the shell under UVB. In other words , keep moisture in , not out.

Presumably our tortoises get their hydration for their entire biology from drinking water. Some is absorbed through skin in soaks also. But I would think this would be minor compared to drinking.

We use high humidity to reduce lass of water through skin and shell - right?
And I guess also to keep shell flexible enough for smooth growth

I really am asking here. I feel like there is something missing in my understanding of the hydration issue.
Maybe I just don't get it straight in my head yet.

Click to expand...

Yes I am saying that it provides mineral oil that helps hydrate the keratin. As well as keep water in. I also feel it definitely makes the Kerstin more permeable. It is absorbing faster. And that is being observed. I also have noted minor sticking of substrate when I don't wipe off excess coconut oil. I have been taking Temps and recording them throughout the day to show a compare and contrast over time with and without coconut oil applicstion. During dry periods and application periods. Pretty interesting numbers.

I think we use good ambient humidity to try and counteract those lamps. And to provide a stable environment for the skin, shell, and intracellular environments hydration wise.. the natural environment varies in the summer and during hibernation they are in the soil dug down at a specific temp and humidity. so the majority of the time they have decent humidity. Those lamps do not provide a decent environment in terms of humidity . All that moisture sucked sway !

Dizisdalife said:

Members using and recommending EVCO is not new on this Forum. Here is a thread from over a year ago:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/olive-oil.82167/
There are undoubtedly other post in threads about VitaShell or other lotions.
Although I haven't seen post from BeeBee or Sandy (two members that have some history usinf EVCO) in a few months, perhaps you could PM them to get some of their experience with applying EVCO. They seem to have been using it for a longer period of time

Click to expand...

Well thank you I will have to message them haha but this thread is trying to push this oil as an acceptable and proper addition for indoor kept tortoises as part of basic care when faced with high powered lamps that dehydrate them. I am determined to prove the legitimacy of this oil and it's use for our tortoises. And to push it's use for care in areas like shell rot and topical infection instead of harmful antifungal creams and medicine where applicatable that are harmful to tortoises. Of course always visit your exotic pet specialist for a second opinion. But knowing about a natural product like this can possibly save a tortoises life one day when every second counts . You never know.. it's contextual and situational . But I am seeing damn good results with applicstion. I am on week 6 of consistent applicstion. . I am a believer for sure. Time will tell

***UPDATE*** So i stumbled upon old pictures of nibbles when i had first got him. I was fascinated with him, i thought i lost these. This will show you a crazy comparison of before application of EVCO and after EVCO application. PICTURE HEAVY. I will alternate between old and new so you can compare nicely. I will show you all the angles I can. These comparing pictures are taken about a month after i got him which was early October last year. When i got him he was only 235g and about 4.25inches, he currently as of today 5inches and 345grams in like 13 months having him. These new pictures were taken within the last month. Look for color saturation, scales "cramped" together, dry lines, skin color, shell color, how ridges seem to flatten out completely and become smooth, This is after complete change in husbandry throughout the year and along with about 7 weeks of application of extra virgin coconut oil these past 7 weeks. I started off at 1x application the first work and worked my way to 3x times a week. The last 3 weeks i alternated between 2x times one week and 3x the other 2 weeks. I wanted to gauge drying time and thermo regulation temps which i have records of each for every day. please let me know what you think. I believe this speaks for itself. You be the judge. compared to this ..... one of my first applications as well as vsas well asvsbut wait there is more! vs.. and.. Let me know what you guys think! Judge away! This is what Extra Virgin Coconut Oil has done for my little guy.

You also apply to skin and head, I believe I read that earlier in the thread. I'm considering trying this on my Redfoot sparky. She has shell problems and under vet care.

I do on occasion. i dont want to interfer with UVB absorption. Skin is spot treated and applied to areas i feel are dry. i dont soak his entire body, just his entire shell. I am trying to make sure i use a balanced approach to this oil. These are new grounds i am treading on. I want to make sure i am doing it right and with no harm to come to my little guy. These pictures more then prove to me how in such a short time how much different it can be when a tortoise is well hydrated. I mean seriously compare these pictures. You can find multiple differences. Some quite significant in my opinion. I am going into psychology, where observation is one of the most important elements to successfully helping people. I can apply this same concept here. And i am doing much observation and recording. I see many differences.

The pictures seem to show a significant smoothing of shell. Old growth especially.

I would be interested in seeing a photo from the rear , positioned like your first original photo from rear.

The back portion of the shell shows dimples and creases that appear to be hydration problems in old growth.

I know it's only been a short time you've been using this , so I wouldn't expect major change , but would like to see it now.

glitch4200 said:

A brief list of concepts and ideas covered thus far in this thread. Please disprove any of these points.

1. For a healthy tortoise to thrive indoors under lamps , you must provide a balanced proper diet, appropriate ambient humidity, proper heat and uvb lighting (if little access to natural sunlight), as well an appropriate habitat that is species specific.

2. a tortoise that does not receive naturally "filtered" sunlight outside and receives artificial lighting indoors is exposing there tortoises to "unfiltered" IR-A. Day after day of prolonged basking is constantly driving water out of the shell and skin of tortoises .

3. This simple fact of knowledge stated above gives me confidence that the natural organic non refined cold pressed extra virgin coconut oil can help as a barrier to help counteract some of the moisture loss from these lamps. Humans have used this for a very long time and keratin which is present in tortoises is also present in humans in our hair , skin and nails. Many accounts on this all over.

4. There is not enough water vapor in the atmosphere right under the lamps to create a "filtration" effect in the IR-A that mimics the sun. This means all those water sucking rays must absorb there water elsewhere. The only water available is the ambient humidity and the water present in the tortoise , that's it.

5. After about a month of observational data and comparing and contrasting pictures over the last month you can't deny the changes in many aspects of the shell, skin color , notable color enhancement, flattening of the keratin. Also I have observed behavioral Changes like basking for longer periods of time now. These are only my opinions and what I have observed. I don't gain anything by lying. I see that as weakness in my new idea. Again these are only observstions and biased ones at that.

6. Proper Humidity and hydration is the of the leading concepts in appropriate husbandry for our tortoises . It is a driving force behind all anatomical, biological, and physiological functions of tortoises. Without proper hydration almost any system of the tortoise can malfunction in some way with time. Same in humans.

7. Soaking is absolutely required to help replace lost water by "unfiltered" IR-A lamps. But I argue the idea that 2x times a week isn't enough if a tortoise is constantly living under these dehydrating lamps. Exp, if the ambient humidity is not at an ideal level. The dehydrating effect is compounded with low ambient humidity that presents conditions no tortoise would sustain long term in there natural habitat.

8. Balance is the key to homeostasis.

That is pretty much every thing I have said in this thread. Can anyone please disprove any of those ideas? If you can't find anything wrong with my then yes my tone is definitely informative. If you find my gathered ideas troubling then say something about it and tell me what is wrong so I can learn and have the right information for people to see.

-Shaun

Click to expand...

Hi there. I'm going to take you at your word that you are welcome to constructive criticism and/or suggestions with an eye toward furthering this line of inquiry. Please note I am not an anti-coconut activist and have no tortoise in this fight, as it were. That said, my input is as follows, notated in reference to your paragraph:

1. To achieve scientific rigor, it is your responsibility to establish evidence. Making a claim and then challenging others to disprove is to ask the audience to do the heavy lifting. You supply the claim, you supply the evidence.

2. The summary provided in paragraph 2 is too simplistic in cause (the oft-mentioned IR-A). Any wavelength of IR (aka 'heat) is desiccating. To my knowledge, this concept is not in question.

3. This conclusion does not follow from the evidence provided. It may be true, but it is not established as presented. In fact, it is a restatement of hypothesis presented as a conclusion.

4. The uneven heating and drying illustrated by the IR spectrographs are directly related to narrow beam spot lamps and high volume to surface area (adult) tortoise shells. Multiple, smaller wattage floodlights closely mimic solar heating.

5. Nothing wrong with observational data. I wonder if there would be a way to measure the flattening you describe?

6. This is an uncontested point that serves no purpose as stated.

7. This feels like a straw man argument. Who is advocating only twice a week soaks and less than ideal RH? Also, if this were indeed the crux of the issue, why wouldn't the appropriate response be more frequent soaks and higher humidity?

8. Homeostasis actually is balance, as in synonymous. Unclear why that is included.

As to the last (unnumbered) point, I don't find your interest, enthusiasm or topic disturbing in the least. By all means continue and I look forward to your research and results. However, I supportively suggest a more cautious approach to conclusions. Can you differentiate between causation and correlation? With any research , what would the null hypothesis look like?

Again, I'm hoping this sounds constructive and not condescending. Capturing tone is not always one of my strengths.

zenoandthetortoise said:

Hi there. I'm going to take you at your word that you are welcome to constructive criticism and/or suggestions with an eye toward furthering this line of inquiry. Please note I am not an anti-coconut activist and have no tortoise in this fight, as it were. That said, my input is as follows, notated in reference to your paragraph:

1. To achieve scientific rigor, it is your responsibility to establish evidence. Making a claim and then challenging others to disprove is to ask the audience to do the heavy lifting. You supply the claim, you supply the evidence.

2. The summary provided in paragraph 2 is too simplistic in cause (the oft-mentioned IR-A). Any wavelength of IR (aka 'heat) is desiccating. To my knowledge, this concept is not in question.

3. This conclusion does not follow from the evidence provided. It may be true, but it is not established as presented. In fact, it is a restatement of hypothesis presented as a conclusion.

4. The uneven heating and drying illustrated by the IR spectrographs are directly related to narrow beam spot lamps and high volume to surface area (adult) tortoise shells. Multiple, smaller wattage floodlights closely mimic solar heating.

5. Nothing wrong with observational data. I wonder if there would be a way to measure the flattening you describe?

6. This is an uncontested point that serves no purpose as stated.

7. This feels like a straw man argument. Who is advocating only twice a week soaks and less than ideal RH? Also, if this were indeed the crux of the issue, why wouldn't the appropriate response be more frequent soaks and higher humidity?

8. Homeostasis actually is balance, as in synonymous. Unclear why that is included.

As to the last (unnumbered) point, I don't find your interest, enthusiasm or topic disturbing in the least. By all means continue and I look forward to your research and results. However, I supportively suggest a more cautious approach to conclusions. Can you differentiate between causation and correlation? With any research , what would the null hypothesis look like?

Again, I'm hoping this sounds constructive and not condescending. Capturing tone is not always one of my strengths.

Click to expand...

Finally someone calls me out on something hahaha! I will gladly accept your constructed criticism ! How else can i learn to do this right. I am very much not that smart in certain aspects. One is writing in a scientific manner even though i am trying my thoughts and ideas can definetly be disorganized as you very much point out.

1. You are right. My only evidence so are these, before and after photo's from the last 7 weeks and any other data i can record as time moves forward. But i needed to ground my idea as plausible to others. I needed to try and have my idea not be dismissed off the bat.

2. With this one i really felt the reader needed to know "unfiltered" IR-A (aka lamps) dehydrate the tortoise. And there tortoise is being exposed to this dehydrating effect. This concept is in support of my hypothesis. That there is a problem in indoor kept enclosures that use lamps to properly heat the tortoise and people should be aware of the effect these lamps have on the tortoise. The only counteractive measures we have as keepers for proper hydration of bodily functions is soaking, ambient humidity, drinking water. That is it... If a keeper doesn't pay attention to humidity that is one less counteractive measure too combat the lamps dehydrating effect. Now consider the amount of people that get misinformed to only soak there tortoise once or twice a week.. That is such little access to water. Another disadvantage and not really effective counteractive measure against those damn dehydrating lamps. Now we are down to our last measure. Drinking water. This is why we always say a tortoise needs access to drinking water at all times. But from my observation i RARELY see him drink from his ALWAYS fresh bowl of drinking water. I always see him drink every single time i soak him. 4x times a week without fail. To me this means if he doesn't drink much and i have bad humidity and if i didnt soak him as much as i do, he would probably die of dehydration or have some long term issues from either micronutrients building up(kidney stones) or some type of MBD/other illness.

3.A bunch of these points were just me restating my thoughts, that one I was actually trying to repeat the hypothesis.

4. I have an instagram: Glitch4200. I have been searching peoples pages for tortoises and let me tell you something. The Majority of peoples habitats i am seeing are glass terrariums with only 2 lights, shitty substrate, NO or LITTLE humidity. oh and i ask them! You wouldn't believe some of the conditions these tortoises are going through.. I see many wrong ideas being put into the heads of these keepers all over, more then i see the appropriate husbandry and set up like one should take care of a tortoise. One narrow beam heat lamp and one (usually coiled bulb) UVB light. These owners have mostly adult tortoises. They provide very bad or lack heating, airflow, and sufficient UVB lighting. There are so many problems with this it has been blowing my mind.. The narrow beam applied to all these tortoises and localized heating can occur at those levels when I have seen the only basking spot being like 7inches above the shell with a 75 watt bulb. I KNOW DAMN WELL THAT SHELL IS BEING OVERHEATED. I freak the F out in my head. They do not have multiple bulbs to mimick a warm environment. Its the opposite. its like what is the little amount of care i can do for it.. I ont know if they dont realize or what. But i have said something to every single one of them. Some respond well, others just don't give a F. And others are ungodly thankful cuz they had no idea.

5. Idk i wish there was i need like a measuring microscope or something. Anyone have idea how i can measure that?

6 & 7. Again, i have asked every single person with a tortoise on instagram that i have seen so far all the basic husbandry questions and the asnwers i get would blow your minds. Most people it seems dont pay much attention to humidity or soaking as much cuz they dont "think" that a desert tortoise needs much water......... SERIOUSLY.... the answer i have gotten are dumbfounding. most answer are they soak about 2 times a week. I did get alot of 3 times a week. But some only like once a week... with no humidity control. That only leaves water in the habitat its ONLY source of hydration. not ok. I am not saying anyone is advocating it here on this forum, but i feel we should be stressing constant soakings at least 4x a week , its not going to harm them it gives them more opportunities to drink water and stay hydrated, passing unused micronutrients safely without buildup in various organ, prevent stones. I mean hydration should be stressed the most nothing else works without it. Its like the base of all bodily functions. No water, no function. with these i was just restating some points, disorganized i know

8. You are very correct. I guess it just sounded good ! How about we just need to have a balanced approach in this experiment.

9. I will definitely take a closer look before i start making conclusions. I appreciate calling me out on certain stuff. I can only learn from it in the long run. Its interesting to hear what others have to say. I can differentiate between the two. At least i would hope so considering my major is psychology.. I like to blur lines when i am not suppose to ..

Alaskamike said:

The pictures seem to show a significant smoothing of shell. Old growth especially.

I would be interested in seeing a photo from the rear , positioned like your first original photo from rear.

The back portion of the shell shows dimples and creases that appear to be hydration problems in old growth.

I know it's only been a short time you've been using this , so I wouldn't expect major change , but would like to see it now.

Click to expand...

I took these this morning. I tried to get all the angles I could for you . I had to upload from my phone sorry it couldn't be thumbnailed nicely for comparison . I will do that again soon. And Continue to take those pics for comparison .

HI, I don't post on the forums too often but this thread caught my eye and I just finished reading all ten pages. I'd always been curious on applying oil or moisturizers to shells, I work with horses where hoof oil is commonly used to combat dryness and I've seen it help my horse's feet in the dry season. I'd never tried it on my tortoises though because of it's UV blocking properties. Granted, the arguments I'd heard against it all implied that the tortoise absorbs most of it's UV through the carapace which apparently is untrue. I use a closed chamber for my two Red Foots which helps keep the ambient humidity up and I try to employ the 'spray them until they drip' method of spritzing their shells with a spray bottle a few times a day. Even with the closed chamber it can be difficult to keep the humidity where I want it (although it's infinitely better then when I was using an open table). When the humidity is right my tort's shells are lovely and glossy but they will get dull and dried out as soon as that humidity drops. I am interested in giving the coconut oil a try.

I did want to contest one thing though, you seem to be pretty adamant that soaking twice a week or less is a dangerously low amount. I would argue that it depends entirely on the tortoise involved. I understand why soaking more often is important for your little one if they so rarely use the water dish available to them but some tortoises utilize their dishes a lot. I know my Red Foots are a tropical species, and a desert species may have different natural behaviors, but my guys play in their water dishes all the time. I typically do a force soak once a week or less because I watch them soak themselves, drink, and generally muck about in the water ever single day. I often give them fresh water at lunch time only to have it become a muddy poopy mess by dinner and need to scrub it out again. Forced soaks four times a week could be the right amount for some individuals, but others might not need it quite so often. Heck, earlier this year I ran into the issue of my girl Tortellini sleeping all night in her water dish. I'd rearranged the enclosure and had the dish too close to her mercury vapor bulb, she was treating it as her own personal hot tub and I was starting to get concerned of the possibility of shell rot. I moved it a few inches further from the light and she went back to her usual routine without issue.

Anyway, I do want to give the coconut oil a try. Maybe it will decrease the number of spray bottle mistings we do.

inkling13 said:

because of it's UV blocking properties. Granted, the arguments I'd heard against it all implied that the tortoise absorbs most of it's UV through the carapace which apparently is untrue.

Click to expand...

What makes you think the carapace doesn't absorb the bulk of the uv needed by a tortoise, and what makes you believe the oil doesn't block uv absorption?

High Humidity.
And frequent soaks
This has become more or less the standard of proper care for young tortoises with ample evidence provided over years of care that shells are healthier - less to no pyramiding - and there does not appear to be negative effects

Enclosed chambers are used to keep ambient humidity in the 70-95% range. Some keep it from 90-100%.

It is clear that the dry 20-40% humidity of most houses is not sufficient to avoid the desiccating effects of heat lamps.

That said, I have some concerns over mold / mildew in an enclosed wet system. I say this because many molds and spores here in Florida flourish, especially with lack of sunlight and daily drying. These spores are not native to the species I keep.

This is not a concern over shell rot , ( though that is possible , especially if an opening from an injury is present) there are ways to check for that and preventative measures. This is a concern for inhalation of the spores. Which is not visible and can damage.

Many types of molds are extremely dangerous To health , especially the Infamous " black mold" found in much of the U.S.

This is an issue discussed only occasionally on the forum and only when mold is visible on surfaces. , as it is not much of an issue in very dry climates where mold is not common. But in central and much of the Southern US it is.

Here is where I advocate for balance. Eco- systems in nature are all about balance. I believe animal health often is also.

Too much of a good thing is ... Well ... Too much. We all know this intuitively as well as in practical application.

Risking sacrilege here , I believe this can apply to wet environments in a closed system.

At times the OP has gone a bit overboard in application - maybe even claims for EVCO , however this enthusiasm is common in any new husbandry technique. Lets not throw the ' baby out with the bath water "

Perhaps the application of EVCO to plastron as well as Caprice can help our torts maintain internally the hydration received. Even fight mold & mildew. Maybe a more modest humidity level of 60-80% is more conducive to avoiding mold and mildew problems in enclosed system. Maybe allowing your chambers to dry out occasionally is a good thing.

Sometimes we become so attached to an idea we become blind to modification, or even advances in our understanding. This we can readily see almost daily on this forum with new people who resist good tested advice.

Knowledge is constantly expanding Through trial and error, accidental discovery and scientific experimentation. This is not a threat to wisdom - it is the very definition of wisdom.
Mike

Cowboy_Ken said:

What makes you think the carapace doesn't absorb the bulk of the uv needed by a tortoise, and what makes you believe the oil doesn't block uv absorption?

Click to expand...

Well, I don't know of any studies done on the production of vitamin D3 in the keratin tissue of shells but for every other animal reliant on the production of vitamin D3 via UV, chemical process occurs in the epidermis of the skin. I found one website that goes in depth about the production of UV in reptiles and the differences in absorption of species with different skin thicknesses: http://www.uvguide.co.uk/skintests.htm Granted, they are focusing more on reptiles in general rather than tortoises specifically but it's still a fascinating read. Here is a quote outlining vitamin D3 production:

"Reptile skin, like that of many vertebrates, has two principle layers: the dermis, which is the deeper layer of connective tissue with a rich supply of blood vessels and nerves, and the epidermis which in reptiles consists of up to seven sub-layers or "strata" of closely packed cells, forming the body's outer protective coating. The epidermis has no blood supply, but it's innermost living cells obtain their nourishment by the diffusion of substances to and from the capillaries at the surface of the dermis directly beneath them. It is on the cell membranes of these cells that pre-vitamin D3 is synthesized from the cholesterol precursor, under ultraviolet light. Once formed there, the pre-D3 is ejected from the cell membrane to the intercellular fluid where it is isomerised to vitamin D3. This diffuses into the capillaries of the dermis, is picked up by the D3 plasma binding protein and carried into the body."

Perhaps some D3 is produced in the shell, I'm in no way positive that it isn't. Skin does contain keratin as well but the keratin in shell/horn/hooves it is hardened or keratinized and currently I can't find much information on how that affects or inhibits D3 production. I am happy to continue researching it though since I am truly curious to learn the answer. Please let me know if you have found any studies on the subject, I'd be interested in reading them.

As for coconut oil's ability to block UV absorption, I know glitch4200 had the statistic of 90% blocking but most of the references I found claim that coconut oil is only about 20% affective at blocking UV, http://www.medicaldaily.com/natural...in-coconut-oil-protect-against-uv-rays-256311 With that in mind I think I'll try applying coconut oil once a week and observe the effects. This way the shell wouldn't be slathered up all the time and what UV absorption it does block wouldn't be constant. It will be an experiment and I'm curious to see the results.

Alaskamike said:

Perhaps the application of EVCO to plastron as well as Caprice can help our torts maintain internally the hydration received. Even fight mold & mildew. Maybe a more modest humidity level of 60-80% is more conducive to avoiding mold and mildew problems in enclosed system. Maybe allowing your chambers to dry out occasionally is a good thing.

Sometimes we become so attached to an idea we become blind to modification, or even advances in our understanding. This we can readily see almost daily on this forum with new people who resist good tested advice.

Knowledge is constantly expanding Through trial and error, accidental discovery and scientific experimentation. This is not a threat to wisdom - it is the very definition of wisdom.
Mike

Click to expand...

Well said Mike. 60-80% humidity is what I aim for in my enclosures and I try to never let it get below 50%. Anything higher than 80% and I'll run into mold and mildew, of which the negative affects can easily outweigh the positives of high humidity.

inkling13 said:

HI, I don't post on the forums too often but this thread caught my eye and I just finished reading all ten pages. I'd always been curious on applying oil or moisturizers to shells, I work with horses where hoof oil is commonly used to combat dryness and I've seen it help my horse's feet in the dry season. I'd never tried it on my tortoises though because of it's UV blocking properties. Granted, the arguments I'd heard against it all implied that the tortoise absorbs most of it's UV through the carapace which apparently is untrue. I use a closed chamber for my two Red Foots which helps keep the ambient humidity up and I try to employ the 'spray them until they drip' method of spritzing their shells with a spray bottle a few times a day. Even with the closed chamber it can be difficult to keep the humidity where I want it (although it's infinitely better then when I was using an open table). When the humidity is right my tort's shells are lovely and glossy but they will get dull and dried out as soon as that humidity drops. I am interested in giving the coconut oil a try.

I did want to contest one thing though, you seem to be pretty adamant that soaking twice a week or less is a dangerously low amount. I would argue that it depends entirely on the tortoise involved. I understand why soaking more often is important for your little one if they so rarely use the water dish available to them but some tortoises utilize their dishes a lot. I know my Red Foots are a tropical species, and a desert species may have different natural behaviors, but my guys play in their water dishes all the time. I typically do a force soak once a week or less because I watch them soak themselves, drink, and generally muck about in the water ever single day. I often give them fresh water at lunch time only to have it become a muddy poopy mess by dinner and need to scrub it out again. Forced soaks four times a week could be the right amount for some individuals, but others might not need it quite so often. Heck, earlier this year I ran into the issue of my girl Tortellini sleeping all night in her water dish. I'd rearranged the enclosure and had the dish too close to her mercury vapor bulb, she was treating it as her own personal hot tub and I was starting to get concerned of the possibility of shell rot. I moved it a few inches further from the light and she went back to her usual routine without issue.

Anyway, I do want to give the coconut oil a try. Maybe it will decrease the number of spray bottle mistings we do.

Click to expand...

That personal hot tub comment was so funny and cute.

I've caught my Cherryhead hanging out directly under the main humidifier outlet for hours at a time. Little stinker.