OK, let's all put our thinking caps on...

terryo · Nov 21, 2014

This may be off topic, but....most of my experience is with box turtles and Cherry Heads. I hear people saying all the time that they are not social animals, but I truly believe that is isn't true. Much to everyone's dismay, both my Cherries were raised with a box turtle for a companion. This worked out fine for me as they were both from good breeders and clean and about the same age. When they were eventually separated, the Cherry head became stressed and would not eat and paced the enclosure for days. Finally she went in her hide and didn't come out for a few days.
They box turtles, which I've been observing for over 30 years are very social. There are two little females which I got from a rescue that are always together. I don't think I've ever seen one without the other. They even go into the cave at the same time and come up together. They eat together too. One got an ear abscess and had to be quarantined, and the other one paced the garden for days until they were united. Pi, my male is the last one to hibernate. He will circle the whole garden for two days, non stop making sure that all the females are in the cave and then he will go in. He is very stressed at this time....I don't know why, I'm only assuming that he wants to make sure his little group is safe under all the leaves. I could go on and on, but I really think when a turtle or tortoise paces and circles, he is stressed. These are animals that could sit in the same place for hours, necks stretched toward the sun, taking in the rays. They are slow moving and have the patience of a saint, so if they are constantly moving I feel they are stressed.

puffy137 · Nov 21, 2014

Terryo, I completely agree, although my adult male 'strutting his stuff', I feel is just a sign of male machismo, showing whoever is interested that He is in charge . Mine have been together since they were very small all of the same species, ( Greeks ) The only time I see any sign of aggression is some 'love bites' during courtship. No harm done .

Hermes · Nov 21, 2014

tglazie said:
Tom is right. I have a lot of experience fostering wild caught Russians, Hermanns, and Greeks through the South Texas Herp Society, and they all behave this way. I get them, they initially eat, they frantically run about the enclosure, then spend the next few days to weeks hiding. The healthy ones usually eat when food is offered, but they return to hiding once fed. This is hardly surprising, given how stressful their situation has been. When I contrast this to my permanent residents, my marginated tortoises, all of whom I acquired as captive bred hatchlings and yearlings, the behavior is completely different. New baby torts are always inquisitive about the new environment, but calm, not frantic. They calmly and confidently explore their environment, and they regularly graze on the plants made available to them in the enclosure. I've never once seen this in a wild caught foster animal. And they always take an extremely long time to get back into shape. I had one Hermanns male a few years back that I've since adopted to a friend. I was pretty sure Hermes was going to die. His eyes were swollen shut, he was light as an empty red eared slider shell, and he didn't eat for the first three days. After a trip to the vet's office, some panacur and some time spent in a ten by ten planted outdoor run, he gradually started coming back from the brink. Despite the gains he made over the summer, I was still uncertain as to whether he would pull through the winter time. To see him now, you wouldn't believe he's the same tortoise. He has fresh growth along his marginal scutes, is heavy, powerful, inquisitive, and grazes constantly when the temperature is to his liking.

This is why I have a problem with Petsmart and Petco. They're always selling these damned wild caught animals, animals that are the worst first tortoise for someone. Wild caughts require patience and constant supervision, as well as immediate veterinary attention. And even with all of these things, many won't survive their first month. And to make matters worse, these stores offer lethal advice. Sorry to get off topic, but that's what I think.

T.G.

Well I'm glad Hermes didn't die....

Maggie Cummings · Nov 22, 2014

Alaskamike said:
The idea that one tortoise can learn observing another is interesting given they're

Social needs , emotions , affection, I'm not so sure about.
However , I AM convinced that all animals , tortoises included an suffer from a kind of depression.

For reasons the forum does not care about, I have not been able to spend as much time with Bob as usual. Last night he walked on my feet to hold me in place then he rammed at me and then tried to sit on my legs. Yes, he's social, and gets lonely. From the way he acts, there's no doubt in my mind. He is used to me spending a certain amount of time with him, and if I don't...I get punished.

vic1711 · Nov 23, 2014

It's been my personal experience (this is tortoises only btw) that the larger the tort... The more they interact w us... And WANT to. I did the sulcata thing until i couldn't lift him anymore. He had the biggest room in the house and the yard. When i went out of town... My daughters would have to clean up after him... And they hated it. Lol. So i would come home to mass destruction. He routinely took down a full wall shelf. And he battered the crap out of the one wall close to the door... It was intense. When i was home.. No problems.
Leopards are awesome. They follow me around like lap dogs. Marie sits in front of the refrigerator... If i give her something shes not nuts about ... She'll spread it all over.., just attention getting tactics to get her way. And it works. She always stands on my feet. She bites other people though. The little ones interact too... But it's just not so obvious. I can't imagine a pancake alone.

Yvonne G · Nov 23, 2014

Back on topic, please. I'm wondering if anyone can figure out why a new tortoise comes into the new environment, eats the first day, then hides after that and doesn't come out. We get this question posed to the Forum all the time and I'd really like to try to figure it out. If they're adjusting, then why do they eat the first day?

Alaskamike · Nov 23, 2014

Yvonne G said:
Back on topic, please. I'm wondering if anyone can figure out why a new tortoise comes into the new environment, eats the first day, then hides after that and doesn't come out. We get this question posed to the Forum all the time and I'd really like to try to figure it out. If they're adjusting, then why do they eat the first day?

It would only be speculation. As we cannot get into their heads. But this is reported and of concern to so many , the hiding thing after a change must be quite common.

My speculation is - they roam and then eat the first day because , they have a need to explore the boundaries of their new world. What's safe , temps, hiding spots. Once this is done they seem to be satisfied. I would guess they have good memories for placement in their environments.

On the eating thing

Being displaced threatens all survival instincts ; safety, food, water , heat & light. It may be they eat when first offered out of survival instinct. Not knowing where or when food might again be available. Once full , and knowing the boundaries of the environment they can hide. It takes time for them to again be hungry.
Mike

terryo · Nov 23, 2014

I absolutely agree with you Mike. I was just going to write something very similar. I think their first instinct is to survive, and to be aware of their surroundings would help with that, and they probably think they better eat what they can find, because they might not find any food for a while, another survival instinct.. Then to hide. I've also noticed many, many times when you think they are hiding, there are two eyes looking out at you under the leaves.

Randi · Jan 7, 2015

I am new to tortoises and I have a young Cherry Head who stays in her hide when she's not eating and not soaking. I don't believe this would be abnormal for a youngster - I believe that her staying in that hide is a sign of comfort or being content. She has moss in both of her hides which she likes to burrow in and rest her head on and nap. I would like for her to be out more but I think I'd become a little concerned if she was pacing around constantly as I'd feel she'd be looking for something that I'm not offering. I think there is being comfortable in a hide/area and then there is hiding. Hiding to me, would be where the animal intentionally passes up on opportunities, like eating or participating in maintaining hydration because they are stressed and/or sick. An example would be putting them in front of food and having them walk away, even if they are starving. Also, too many sights and sounds around them in their environment would probably encourage them to stay put. I find new arrivals are more likely to stay put in one area until they are comfortable enough to explore. For some it is days, weeks and maybe even months. I own some reptiles who show signs of normality by hiding and staying put. If my leopard geckos were walking all over the tank, I would be worried. They hide to survive. Less likely to become dinner for something else.. could also be a personality thing. One that is shy is likely to avoid where as one that is confident and care free may roam. I hope what I've said makes sense. I guess we will never know and it will only really be our interpretation of the behaviours we see.

dmmj · Jan 7, 2015

Hold on let me ask my tortoises this question..... waiting
still waiting for an answer.....
still waiting.

terryo · Jan 7, 2015

dmmj said:
Hold on let me ask my tortoises this question..... waiting
still waiting for an answer.....
still waiting.

So happy to see you have not changed David. Hope you're feeling better.

johnsonnboswell · Jan 9, 2015

I wonder if the change in diet affects them and could be a factor?

Anyfoot · Jan 10, 2015

lisa127 said:
I think when a turtle or tortoise is wandering around his habitat and a new keeper sees that as active/happy that's not necessarily so. A tort that obsessively wanders the enclosure and is climbing all over the place is not active, it is stressed.

I don't have torts as you know, I have box turtles. They are very active. By active I mean they calmly go about their day. They come out in the morning and bask. Soak in their water dish, chew on cuttlebone. Look for worms. All the while stopping occasionally and just hanging out and looking around. All of this is done "calmly". If they were moving about their enclosure non stop I would call that stress. So maybe what a new person sees as active/happy is not. Being a newbie, they just don't realize that.

And oftentimes, when a person new to torts/turtles or herps in general says they hide all day - what do they mean by that? If they mean hiding and hasn't come out to bask or eat in a week then yes that's a problem. If they mean hide all day like a reptile is supposed to do, that's not a problem. So when a "newbie" says hide all day you need to find out if that is an exaggeration and they are not just saying that because they are used to other types of pets.

I don't know if I'm making sense here. Normal behavior might seem like an issue to a newbie because they just don't know.

As for eating the first day and not later, I just don't know. Honestly, I've never had that happen. If a herp came to my house and ate the very first day they have always continued to do so.

Lisa.
In my opinion you hit the nail on the head. When ever I see torts in the reptile shops they are super active(hyper). This in my opinion is because they are in panic mode and cannot settle down, they can't find a secure place to rest so keep moving about till they can, and in a pet shop because they want to display there torts there are no hides. A hyper tort is not happy. So when you buy one and fetch it home its always starving because its been so active in the shop, then when its fed its face it finally finds a place to retreat to. This is now a happy tort. Then over a period of time it get used to its new environment and through hunger is forced to come out, eventually realising its onto a good thing. Its all about security for the tort. Sometimes my torts will hide for half a day, other days they are out all day active. They have the option to do what ever they want knowing they can retrieve back to there hides for security. I also think when you add a new tort to your existing herd they watch the existing torts and follow there suit gaining security faster than the very first tort did.

Myroli · Mar 4, 2015

I am new to torts(just got a baby sulcata) but I agree that the first day they are probably stressed from being put in a tiny space and getting bumped around a lot(i would assume) but as for the hiding: wild tortoises are only awake for a few hours a day so as long as there is evidence they came out at some point I would say no big deal.

bouaboua · Mar 4, 2015

This thread reminded me of Tiff @T33"s Torts

Chenderson · Mar 10, 2015

I am by no means an experienced tortoise owner. But I did recently move my tortoise from one enclosure to a new one. My tortoise is normally very active and inquisitive, however when moved to the new environment, she went straight for her log, and sat in a neutral spot, and two days later is still there. I'm not worried, as I trust shes(at least relatively) healthy. When I first got her 6 weeks ago, she was very active in the pet shop, and hid for two days when I put her into her new enclosure also. I have never seen her stressed, except when she's bored of bathing. I would imagine it's down to the tortoises breed and personality, and maybe how frequently their environment is changed.

I constantly flit around my tortoises enclosure, moving things and swapping stuff in and out, just trying to get the right balance. My mother who owns two Hermann, is also a new owner. The one they have had longer is not bothered about environment changes, similar to mine, however their new tortoise seems to run around like a lunatic in their new new enclosure(Initial one, then soon after a new one more appropriate to the size).

If I was to form an initial observation from the three relatively new tortoises, owned by two new tortoise owners; I would say its a conflict of their natural instincts and their acclimatization to captivity, and different owner styles. As I said though, Im a tortoise noob, so my opinion should not be highly valued, but I was thinking about this myself. I agree with what Lisa127 said also about new tortoise owners not understanding how they are, I expected mine to be active for most of the day, and sit in the basking lamp. I spent two or three weeks scanning the forums for info first though, and my torts behaviors were similar to most Redfoots.

It is panicky being a new tortoise owner with no reptile experience, I didnt know about shedding, or how the shells new growth looked. And without the forums I would have been lost.

Chenderson · Mar 10, 2015

As a separate note about eating, I would imagine, from what I have read on other forums also. Tortoise's being survival animals, moved to a new environment, they would not know where to locate food. So until they learn the routine of; food will always be on my slate when I'm hungry. They will initially eat their fill, because they don't know when the next meal will be in this new environment. Much the same way they will pass waste, when they have access to food and water, efficiency being crucial to them. You don't need to be happy, or even comfortable to eat. Contrary to that, when I got my Redfoot, she was fed diced cabbage and tomatoes at the pet store, and wouldn't initially eat until I chopped her food up.

Gillian M · Mar 27, 2015

I think that it's the fact that a tort is going into a new environment, new place, new owner(s), new faces, new enclosure, new temperature(s). Well...new everything, till it adapts and settles down. Let alone the fact that the poor thing may have been "imprisoned" GOD only know where and how, till it got to its new owner.

Tidgy's Dad · Mar 27, 2015

Tidgy didn't eat on her first day. Or for 3 or 4 days after. Then she never stopped, so to speak.
As to why so many torts eat the first day and not for the next several, could it just be it takes them a day to realize they're in a different environment and so they eat as normal, then they think ' Where am I?' and go into the readjustment sulk?
They're not very bright, you know.
Just a thought.

jeffb · Apr 19, 2015

When the tortoise begins to feel comfortable with his surrounding he will surface. A barging tortoise is not a happy tortoise. Happiness is the key to their longevity.

OK, let's all put our thinking caps on...

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