Coconut Oil

Something to ponder...
What about the inadvertent ingestion of the coconut oil. My tortoises track through their water dish often and sometimes soak as well. Their water tends to be warm because their chamber is warm, and if they are covered in oil, some would end up on the surface of the water. When they drink, they would obviously ingest some of the oil. What benefits or problems could arise from this, I wonder? It's a medium chain fatty acid and a fabulous source of saturated fat, but do we want this fabulous fat in our tortoises?

And I agree, he is looking great.

Yvonne G said:

Not quite convinced yet. I'm giving it a lot of thought, and I have bought some to try on problem shells.

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Good I'm glad you're not totally convinced. It will take many more months maybes years and many other accounts to prove this to convince. I am glad I caught your interest though and others interest as well. I have only the best intentions with this.

Alaskamike said:

He's looking very good.

When I say oil is still present in mine 2 weeks after application , I don't mean it is visible. I mean that when giving soaks water still beads up on caprice in a way it did not do without any application. This beading says to me the oil is still present on shell.

As far as when in growth high humidity and soaks are reduced / eliminated , others would have to answer that.
I don't consider myself one of the " guys" you refer to as my assumption is you mean the " old timers" and experts in tortoise care.
It takes time for acceptance of any new addition to care - no matter how well substantiated.

I believe the prevailing attitude is, the younger and smaller the tort , the more danger of dehydration. If this is correct , the larger faster growing species would reduce their need quicker with age.

For mine - water will always be available both for soaking and drinking.

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Thank you he does look good I am noticing the ridges smooth out completely in different areas of his shell. I mean like completely smoothed out. It's really interesting.

I feel the people that contribute to an idea or technique in a way to promote the advancement or intellectually disprove that particular idea that is within the scope of tortoises are the real experts and innovators here on this forum. People who are "experienced" can have a lot of knowledge about a subject but it's the people who can contribute to the addition or subtraction of that knowledge that makes them pretty useful in a place like this. You can't be quiet if your an expert and someone pokes at a new idea that you can add or subtract from or even dismiss completely. The ones who speak up with there experienced knowledge are the real experts here. I ask for people to dissect this claim in hopes to find something I didn't.

Elohi said:

Something to ponder...
What about the inadvertent ingestion of the coconut oil. My tortoises track through their water dish often and sometimes soak as well. Their water tends to be warm because their chamber is warm, and if they are covered in oil, some would end up on the surface of the water. When they drink, they would obviously ingest some of the oil. What benefits or problems could arise from this, I wonder? It's a medium chain fatty acid and a fabulous source of saturated fat, but do we want this fabulous fat in our tortoises?

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A very good point. I bathe him 3 to 4 times a week and I'm sure some gets in the water maybe.. I mean the majority of his shell is not covered by water.

But how much would really be consumed by them if some did get into the water and they happen to drink it? ..
And would that level of consumption be detrimental to a tortoises health over a long period of time while applying the oil consistently?
Would small levels of it hurt a well hydrated tortoise? Or would it simply pass through unharmed?

My question is does a tortoise receive natural forms a saturated fat in there natural enviornment? And if so can it be safe to assume small amounts can be consumed if it had actually happend with evco?

glitch4200 said:

A very good point. I bathe him 3 to 4 times a week and I'm sure some gets in the water maybe.. I mean the majority of his shell is not covered by water.

But how much would really be consumed by them if some did get into the water and they happen to drink it? ..
And would that level of consumption be detrimental to a tortoises health over a long period of time while applying the oil consistently?
Would small levels of it hurt a well hydrated tortoise? Or would it simply pass through unharmed?

My question is does a tortoise receive natural forms a saturated fat in there natural enviornment? And if so can it be safe to assume small amounts can be consumed if it had actually happend with evco?

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Certainly I am no expert on tortoise metabolism or digestive processes. But just the basics of diet and understanding of herbivores leads me to think ingestion of a naturally occurring oil in plant matter would not be a problem.

I have decided to apply the EVCO to my torts once a week. Only to shells. After following this thread closely I see no downside - only possible improvement in shell / keratin health. I think the anti- bacterial & anti fungal properties are a big plus here in So Florida with our high humidity and rainy seasons.

After a few months I will give an update. I have one rescued 2 yo Sulcata with pyramiding that I'd like to see smooth out.

It is probable that no matter what , I will not be able to determine the direct results of the EVCO as I am soaking and providing optimal care as I can.

But I'm on board to try it.
Mike

Queen Anne is showing early signs of pyrimiding on her back end scutes. I won't start to use coconut oil until the warmer weather comes again, in case it makes them feel chilled . I'm pretty sure the reason she has this is because she doesn't get enough exercise, & I might be feeding them too much.

puff 137 said:

Queen Anne is showing early signs of pyrimiding on her back end scutes. I won't start to use coconut oil until the warmer weather comes again, in case it makes them feel chilled . I'm pretty sure the reason she has this is because she doesn't get enough exercise, & I might be feeding them too much.

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This idea isn't aimed at reducing pyramiding. Although, it's possible it can help. This idea is there to increase overall hydration to the keratin and to promote healthy cellular function deep down into the organs. This is an idea to try and combat the indoor lamps used that create intense dehydrating conditions day after day of use.

From my research and constant temp taking of the carapace before and after application. I do not see any indication that application makes them feel "chilled" as if that was the case it would lower the heat absorption substantially and I would see that in my temperature readings. I have not found that to be the case. But of course do what you feel is right for your tortoise.

Alaskamike said:

Certainly I am no expert on tortoise metabolism or digestive processes. But just the basics of diet and understanding of herbivores leads me to think ingestion of a naturally occurring oil in plant matter would not be a problem.

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Where does one find the "expert" on tortoise digestion and metabolism that could answer this with certainty? Does a tortoise receive natural sources of saturated fat in there diet in any amount? And if extra virgin coconut oil was eaten on accident in small amounts would it effect them since it a very clean natural saturated fat oil?

Right , I have a confession to make & an observation. Yesterday I had an impulse to use coconut oil on the tortoises that were out milling around in their paddock , so I asked my humans if anyone had any coconut oil, not having found any in my local supermarket, Some coconut hair oil was produced, with a slight perfume smell, but hmm , what the heck let me try it. Soo , I bathed them & dried them & massaged said oil into their shells , then buffed it off. & returned them to their paddock, Now for the observation. Ceasar who normally chases Reeva around everywhere, suddenly lost interest in her. She seemed puzzled , kept following him , & even bit him on his hind leg.This has NEVER happened before. Still no response until he gave her one consolatory bump,then walked away. Today things were back to normal , the perfume smell must have faded, but the lustre of their shells is still in tact, Will try to procure some pure oil in future . as its not as sticky as olive oil , which always seems to make matters worse. Thanks Glitch

puff 137 said:

Right , I have a confession to make & an observation. Yesterday I had an impulse to use coconut oil on the tortoises that were out milling around in their paddock , so I asked my humans if anyone had any coconut oil, not having found any in my local supermarket, Some coconut hair oil was produced, with a slight perfume smell, but hmm , what the heck let me try it. Soo , I bathed them & dried them & massaged said oil into their shells , then buffed it off. & returned them to their paddock, Now for the observation. Ceasar who normally chases Reeva around everywhere, suddenly lost interest in her. She seemed puzzled , kept following him , & even bit him on his hind leg.This has NEVER happened before. Still no response until he gave her one consolatory bump,then walked away. Today things were back to normal , the perfume smell must have faded, but the lustre of their shells is still in tact, Will try to procure some pure oil in future . as its not as sticky as olive oil , which always seems to make matters worse. Thanks Glitch

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I find your need to impulse troubling in this matter. The "coconut hair oil" you used is not what I am recommending . I have no idea the toxins or chemicals used in the "perfume" smell which is not present in pure extra virgin coconut oil. This entire thread is just specifically for that promotion on an idea of extra virgin coconut oil. The observation you tell is not one that pertains to the oil I am referring to in this thread .I applaud the attempt to do right. But I can't consider this part observational data for extra virgin coconut oil application in the sense I am speaking unless you used what the oil i am referring too . When you do get the right oil, then observe and tell me what you see , I would like to know that interaction with the right oil. The hair part of the product also scares the **** out of me too you have no Idea which products are harmful to animals.

The only coconut oil I'm likely to find here is imported from India , & whether its 'pure, extra & virgin ' will be anyone's guess. However I shall persevere & let you know .

Never had much reason to use coconut oil before, I will now for cosmetic purposes on my tortoises, I once had to take my son & also a friends child to a Harley Street skin specialist because they both had light patches of skin appearing on their faces & bodies. The doctor prescribed anti-fungal cream, Travogen & also for us not to use products containing coconut oil .

puff 137 said:

Queen Anne is showing early signs of pyrimiding on her back end scutes. I won't start to use coconut oil until the warmer weather comes again, in case it makes them feel chilled . I'm pretty sure the reason she has this is because she doesn't get enough exercise, & I might be feeding them too much.

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Puff, the cause of pyramiding is lack of humidity... I'd suggest you start a thread about it to make sure Queen Anne is actually pyramiding and how to fix it.

*UPDATE*
I am noticing the EVCO absorbing at an alarming rate now into the keratin...I will put a couple finger scoops on, wait about 2 minutes. Go to wipe it off with NOTHING coming off now. Thats #1....
#2... i am noticing the oil either evaporate or absorb into the keratin faster then previous weeks 4 weeks, I will apply the oil and visually watch it absorb by end of day. I feel this is absorption not evaporation because the temps are not changing and his basking habits are not changing. Which leads me to believe the beta-keratin has become very receptive of this oil.. How much is too much is a question i am asking myself often now.. I want to stay away from applying too much. But i want to combat the drying effects of these lamps and I have found that in an open table top with unregulated humidity such as my set up the humidity becomes dangerously low even more so under those lamps then in an "enclosed chamber". A reason why i have upped his baths to 4 times a week. But I am struggling with the idea of hydration and what is too much and what is not enough. Kertain hydration seems to effect every aspect of a tortoise from organ function to cellular hydration to proper bone development. Since beta keratin is hydroscopic and absorbs water so readily, i see this as the start of figuring out the proper hydration level for my russian tortoise and how to actually get my russian to receive the amount of water to replenish what is taken from basking under those lamps for hours on end.

I cringe at the reading of a indoor kept tortoise under lamps with 1 to 2 baths a week.. thinking that that is enough to counteract the "unfiltered" IR-A rays dehydrating effects. No one can claim that a tortoise is receiving the appropriate water for bodily development and function at only 1 to 2 baths a week while indoor kept under powerful heat and uvb lamps. The research doesnt back that up. And most readily shows the opposite is happening. The tortoise is most undoubtably dehydrated and continues to "stay" dehydrated until a solution is presented to combat those lamps and multiple soaking are given. Which often does NOT happen. Soaks alone can't solve this "unfiltered" IR-A problem. Soaks only replenish the partial loss off water from the lamps in small amounts. It does NOT replenish hours and hours of "unfiltered" IR-A day after day after day.... Ambient Humidity is part of the solution. Soaking is part of the solution. EVCO is part of the solution. Proper DIet is part of the solution. Appropriate habitat is part of the solution, Appropriate lighting is the solution. A balance with these key ingrediants is needed to just keep the hydration level in all aspects at the level is needs full a tortoise to "THRIVE" not "SURVIVE". This is not the wild. This is captivity and i feel we owe our tortoises the chance to have 100 percent hydration at ALL times. But again, i am striving to find the balance.. Unless someone can tell me otherwise, why should a tortoise ever be subjected to less then 100% hydration even if in the wild they dont always recieve that 100 percent hydration.
-Shaun

Shaun,
I'm sorry but your tone and this thread is starting to resemble an infomercial. Just giving you the heads up here. That is all.

Cowboy_Ken said:

Shaun,
I'm sorry but your tone and this thread is starting to resemble an infomercial. Just giving you the heads up here. That is all.

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It's a debatable topic in the debatable section. This is all my opinion .. am I in the wrong? If I am wrong, call me out on what I am wrong on.. please . I would hope and I have announced multiple times throughout the thread to call me out if I am saying something that is not correct. I have noone saying anything to me about what I have said and those who have , we have very nicely talked about it. If I am wrong about it tell me so I can learn. It's not helping me or anyone if what I spew is wrong and people who view this thread knows something I don't and does not call me out on it. Pretty much everything I have talked about is what I have read through the forum and that has gotten a general consensus of the correct path of trying doing it right. this is what a forum is for, to push forward and have people present new ideas to the masses for approval or disproval. If you don't agree then find a flaw in my words. I am very opinionated and I do get worked up about this type of stuff.

Cowboy_Ken said:

Shaun,
I'm sorry but your tone and this thread is starting to resemble an infomercial. Just giving you the heads up here. That is all.

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A brief list of concepts and ideas covered thus far in this thread. Please disprove any of these points.

1. For a healthy tortoise to thrive indoors under lamps , you must provide a balanced proper diet, appropriate ambient humidity, proper heat and uvb lighting (if little access to natural sunlight), as well an appropriate habitat that is species specific.

2. a tortoise that does not receive naturally "filtered" sunlight outside and receives artificial lighting indoors is exposing there tortoises to "unfiltered" IR-A. Day after day of prolonged basking is constantly driving water out of the shell and skin of tortoises .

3. This simple fact of knowledge stated above gives me confidence that the natural organic non refined cold pressed extra virgin coconut oil can help as a barrier to help counteract some of the moisture loss from these lamps. Humans have used this for a very long time and keratin which is present in tortoises is also present in humans in our hair , skin and nails. Many accounts on this all over.

4. There is not enough water vapor in the atmosphere right under the lamps to create a "filtration" effect in the IR-A that mimics the sun. This means all those water sucking rays must absorb there water elsewhere. The only water available is the ambient humidity and the water present in the tortoise , that's it.

5. After about a month of observational data and comparing and contrasting pictures over the last month you can't deny the changes in many aspects of the shell, skin color , notable color enhancement, flattening of the keratin. Also I have observed behavioral Changes like basking for longer periods of time now. These are only my opinions and what I have observed. I don't gain anything by lying. I see that as weakness in my new idea. Again these are only observstions and biased ones at that.

6. Proper Humidity and hydration is the of the leading concepts in appropriate husbandry for our tortoises . It is a driving force behind all anatomical, biological, and physiological functions of tortoises. Without proper hydration almost any system of the tortoise can malfunction in some way with time. Same in humans.

7. Soaking is absolutely required to help replace lost water by "unfiltered" IR-A lamps. But I argue the idea that 2x times a week isn't enough if a tortoise is constantly living under these dehydrating lamps. Exp, if the ambient humidity is not at an ideal level. The dehydrating effect is compounded with low ambient humidity that presents conditions no tortoise would sustain long term in there natural habitat.

8. Balance is the key to homeostasis.

That is pretty much every thing I have said in this thread. Can anyone please disprove any of those ideas? If you can't find anything wrong with my then yes my tone is definitely informative. If you find my gathered ideas troubling then say something about it and tell me what is wrong so I can learn and have the right information for people to see.

-Shaun

I keep reading the updates on this thread. Thinking I don't need to comment anymore , just wait and see what results are over time. And that is really what I will do ,

But your comment about absorption is interesting. I know keratin is porous, but it would surprise me if absorption increased the more often applied I have no idea why this might be so. Anyone hazard a guess ?

And if this is in fact happening , what are the potential effects on the tortoise ?

EVCO is soluble fat , among other things. I assume it is absorbed in my skin when applied. It doesn't evaporate easily or quickly.

As I stated before. The first time I tried it , 2 weeks later water still beaded up on their shells, in ways it did not before application.

Is it possible frequent application is making the keratin more permeable ?
And if so , does this have a potential downside ? Wow , I really don't have the science for that question.