Yearling Desert Tortoise Diet

AraBlu

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Hey! I am hoping someone can help me here...

I adopted two Sonoran Desert Tortoise yearlings from a buddy, they seem to have a real preference for romaine and lettuce. I have tried kale, turnip greens, and collards with no luck. Should I cut back on the daily feeding? With our temps in the triple digits I am leery to do so with their size and metabolism.

They are being kept outdoors, I live in Mesa and are in an outdoor enclosure that is 48" x 64". The photos show the substrate that I am using and I am going to attempt to put a patch of bermuda grass in the enclosure. I saw the diet sheet that is posted and I am trying to get these little ones off to a good start.

Has anyone correlated pyramiding to diet in this species? I also read that it was associated with humidity.

Thanks for your input.

Bob
 

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Tom

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Pyramiding is caused by growth in conditions that are too dry. I have seen tortoises fed all "wrong" grow perfectly smooth due to living in a warm humid environment and getting good hydration. I have personally raised tortoises with a "perfect" all natural weedy grassy diet, and they still pyramided significantly because conditions were too dry in my climate.

I typed this sheet up for sulcatas, but its basically the same for DTs. Maybe a bit less emphasis on the grass and a bit more emphasis on succulents.
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/for-those-who-have-a-young-sulcata.76744/


Tortoise will eat what they prefer and what they are familiar with. It will take time to introduce new and unfamiliar foods to them. Try finely chopping up their romaine and then mixing it up with a small amount of finely chopped mulberry leaf, cactus pad, appropriate weeds, or grass clippings. Keep doing this and over time bump up the ratio of new stuff to old. It might take months, but keep at it. You'll eventually be rewarded with torts that eat whatever you put out, and they will be much healthier for it. Do not be afraid to let them choose to go hungry during this process. They would not starve if they skipped eating entirely for weeks. A picky tortoise can be a hungry tortoise. Hunger will be your friend and assistant in this endeavor.
 

Yvonne G

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Chop up the lettuce and romaine into small pieces and to that add a small amount of chopped up weeds and grasses. Over time increase the amount of good weeds and grasses and decrease the lettuces.
 

AraBlu

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I have tried to add cilantro with no luck... I am soaking these little ones every-other-day. I read the one thread on this forum and they mentioned small portions of vegetable matter such as carrots and basically avoiding fruit with the exception of prickly pear nopales. The larger of the two is already showing some pyramiding and I am trying to get that under control.
 

Tom

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I have tried to add cilantro with no luck... I am soaking these little ones every-other-day. I read the one thread on this forum and they mentioned small portions of vegetable matter such as carrots and basically avoiding fruit with the exception of prickly pear nopales. The larger of the two is already showing some pyramiding and I am trying to get that under control.

Its not a matter of putting out new unfamiliar foods and and they don't it it and thats that. You have to keep introducing that same new food in tiny chopped quantities at first and then gradually more as weeks and months pass. Seldom will a tort just eat a new food on day one, especially if they can get lettuce instead.

You will never stop that pyramiding outdoors in Mesa. To dry. And stopping pyramiding in progress is MUCH harder than preventing it in the first place. You'll need an indoor closed chamber for a while with brief daily sunning session outdoors. Here is what I mean: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/closed-chambers.32333/
 

AraBlu

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Its not a matter of putting out new unfamiliar foods and and they don't it it and thats that. You have to keep introducing that same new food in tiny chopped quantities at first and then gradually more as weeks and months pass. Seldom will a tort just eat a new food on day one, especially if they can get lettuce instead.

You will never stop that pyramiding outdoors in Mesa. To dry. And stopping pyramiding in progress is MUCH harder than preventing it in the first place. You'll need an indoor closed chamber for a while with brief daily sunning session outdoors. Here is what I mean: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/closed-chambers.32333/

I fully understand what you wrote about introducing new foods, I do the same with my macaws.

Okay, here is something I don't understand though... if a species is native to a region and they don't become pyramidal in the wild; why do they require a humidity chamber when kept in captivity? I am keeping these little guys outside because they are native to the region and I think its the right thing to do. I would assume that being native and receiving their natural conditions they would develop normally. I appreciate your input on this topic. I can understand that theory/practice if I was raising Redfoots, Sri Lankans, Radiateds...
 

Tom

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Yours is a fair and often asked question.

Answer: Because your back yard and that little tiny pen is NOTHING like what they would get or do in the wild. In the wild they spend the vast majority of their lives underground. Its cooler on hot days and warmer on cold days than the above ground temps they encounter in your back yard. It is also much more humid underground and they pee and poo down there adding to the humidity. They also can seek out millions of different microclimates, or even create their own, out in the wild vs being forced to deal with what is available in the few square feet in your back yard pen. Also remember that 300-3000 babies die in the wild for every one that survives to adulthood.

I find it helps to think of hatchling desert tortoises like a desert earth worm. How well do you think a desert earthworm would do living above ground in your out door pen? Now give that same earth worm a damp underground burrow with damp substrate to dig into, and how would he do? Then move that bad boy indoors into a closed chamber and the more stable conditions inside your house, then how well do you think he would do? See where I'm going? Babies thrive and do best with good hydration and protection from the elements. Living above ground outside in a small pen during the Mesa summer is about as harsh as it can get and still be survivable.

The closed chamber does not have to be all that humid for this species. Moderate humidity and a humid hide box will do. But raising any species outdoors full time in any climate is difficult and hard on them. Babies raised primarily indoors thrive and do better. I speculate that its the more stable indoors temps and conditions as well as the protection from the elements that makes them do so much better indoors. All my adults and older juveniles live outside full time, but babies do best when started mostly inside with hour long sunning sessions in the hot dry outdoor pens, followed by a soak on the way in.
 

AraBlu

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http://www.donsdeserttortoises.com/2.html

Do your torts show any interest in burrowing? That would be awesome if they did...this way they will create their own space for warmth, coolness and humidity according to their needs....have you tried to do a started for them....?

No they really don't. I created hiding areas for them which they do frequent. These are actually hybrids between Texas and Sonoran Desert Torts. I am not a fan of hybridizing (just my opinion) but these little guys needed a home. I attached a photo of the enclosure we built... We know eventually that we will have to separate them and give them a minimum of a 12' x 12' habitat.IMG_1987.jpg
 
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ascott

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Okay, so when I take first glance at the space, the space is a good starter space....I do have a concern about the actual overall temp...and here is why...there is very limited heavy shade ...I mean, the palms are pretty, however no really heavy shade, you know what I mean...am I saying this right without sounding like I am slamming you ( I have been accused of being insensitive lately, so just making sure you are not feeling that, this is too important for that...okay :)). Also, there is the brick wall, the brick exterior space walls...which in that size of space could create some overall increased temps on top of the already high day temps (good for night though, because of the heat retention with block).

I would wonder if lets say, you took some 2x4's or better a couple of them placed over half of the length of the enclosure, then on top of those you place some heavy shade plants, this will offer a lot of thick shade and also a catalyst for water retention in turn with the geographic locale would allow some humidity to escape into that area along with retaining some moisture....does that make sense...if you line at least half of it and then place heavy shade plants on top of those boards (plants in planters of course, and the planters/pots filled with clean chemical free earth) then set up a schedule to make it rain over the entire enclosure at the warmest/hottest time of the day...allow puddles to form in the enclosure and then back the water off...well, that is unless you get a couple curious torts romping round in the water...then keep it coming until you see their interest change, and it will....then shut down the rain...I also would not do this too close to night fall, you don't want cool and wet but more surface moisture during the hottest time of the day....this will allow the top of the earth to dry up a bit as night falls....'

I also would try to add some earth under that hide and make it a bit higher off the ground level...incase you get some downpour...then reset the hut....you can also try something like a half moon shaped tunnel placed in the hut space, then fill around that with dirt...then re set your pavers over and on top of that earth mound, this will help so water does not displace the mound and also allows a buffer for the heat as well as retains some heat for the night....

Have you looked at these styles?;

http://www.ivanpahsolar.com//wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Tortoise-in-her-manmade-burrow-in-pen-21.jpg

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTG-IaySqZFupehlnfN4o_O2dMQ4W8VLYXFOnopBMmVMTd0KWoA

http://blogs.sandiegozoo.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/hatchling-1.jpg

I really like the following idea...then just burying the entire thing and packing that down...good insulation with the earth...

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-xmMdfFOJ2Io/UFqpAcbvVtI/AAAAAAAABNY/cQB5nTNwc8Y/s320/IMG_0115.JPG

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-xIGNp38jzVo/UFqpul9Cm7I/AAAAAAAABNg/BxGeXxHM5Wo/s320/IMG_0116.JPG

http://www.azgfd.gov/w_c/tortoise/documents/PhxPreTucShelters_2014_002.pdf

:D
 

ascott

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Oh, I was thinking a little more on this....also, try to offer at least 2-3 feet distance from front entrance to back wall for the burrow (or more if you can offer that up)....with depth, you allow additional gradients of temp and humidity for the tort to move about within the burrow as well....
 
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