I received an interesting response about Mazuri

Wait...are you saying that the person who said we shouldn't be using Mazuri is EJ? Because EJ is Ed Pirog. And he exclusively feeds Mazuri to all his tortoises - at least he was using that regimine a couple years ago when he was active on this forum.

I trust the Mazuri folks. Way back when, I understood that this product was 'invented' for zoos to feed to their giant tortoises. I've trusted it ever since, and I use it once a week for my Aldabrans .

Phytic acid causes inflammation so in time health conditions and problem can arise. The diseases that chronic inflammation can cause, can cause vitamin and mineral deficiencies (and a whole lot more) but that won't happen for a very long time in most cases. I have stopped feeding mazuri because I have concerns about the ingredients, but I haven't found a great alternative and may eventually add it back in as an occasional supplement. Keyword there is *may*.
All that to say the Phytic acid itself isn't blocking vitamin and mineral absorption.

Edited to add: inflammation that Phytic acid can cause is much different in the gut of the herbivore vs the omnivore and the carnivore. It happens significantly quicker in the guts of the omnivore and carnivore than the herbivore.

Elohi said:

Phytic acid causes inflammation so in time health conditions and problem can arise. The diseases that chronic inflammation can cause, can cause vitamin and mineral deficiencies (and a whole lot more) but that won't happen for a very long time in most cases. I have stopped feeding mazuri because I have concerns about the ingredients, but I haven't found a great alternative and may eventually add it back in as an occasional supplement. Keyword there is *may*.
All that to say the Phytic acid itself isn't blocking vitamin and mineral absorption.

Edited to add: inflammation that Phytic acid can cause is much different in the gut of the herbivore vs the omnivore and the carnivore. It happens significantly quicker in the guts of the omnivore and carnivore than the herbivore.

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The Zoo Med grass eater pellets are a good choice. But pretty expensive when feeding more than a couple tortoises.

Elohi said:

Phytic acid causes inflammation so in time health conditions and problem can arise. The diseases that chronic inflammation can cause, can cause vitamin and mineral deficiencies (and a whole lot more) but that won't happen for a very long time in most cases. I have stopped feeding mazuri because I have concerns about the ingredients, but I haven't found a great alternative and may eventually add it back in as an occasional supplement. Keyword there is *may*.
All that to say the Phytic acid itself isn't blocking vitamin and mineral absorption.

Edited to add: inflammation that Phytic acid can cause is much different in the gut of the herbivore vs the omnivore and the carnivore. It happens significantly quicker in the guts of the omnivore and carnivore than the herbivore.

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what ingredients concern you?

I was incorrect about Phytic acid and mineral binding. It does in fact bind to minerals. Soy itself is very high in Phytic acid but I'm preparing a comment about the ingredients I have some concern with and why.

I have been using Mazuri for years without any issues for my Hermanns.

Does anyone remember when Mazuri became available to the general public ?

Careym13 said:

I see nothing wrong with 10 donuts, personally

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I'm with you on this. My wife may not........

Turtulas-Len said:

Does anyone remember when Mazuri became available to the general public ?

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I remember buying it at a pet store since the early 90's.

I'm personally very thankful for mazuri. My tort wasn't gaining any weight for 3 months and mazuri fixed that!

I wouldn't use products like Mazuri because their ingredients seem too unnatural to me, tortoises are no seed predators after all.

I don't know much about RFs, but according to my experience Hermanns are very tough animals, they can thrive on almost any diet, so it's difficult to say what's best for them. The breeders of my torts are feeding fruit, bread, pasta, cheese,... every day and their tortoises are healthy, no mineral deficiencies or whatsoever (they are over 70 years old and had lots of offspring). My grandparents did the same thing for 30 years without problems. I still wouldn't call it a healthy diet.

We have no proof that junk food is harmful for us either, do we?

Yvonne G said:

Wait...are you saying that the person who said we shouldn't be using Mazuri is EJ? Because EJ is Ed Pirog. And he exclusively feeds Mazuri to all his tortoises - at least he was using that regimine a couple years ago when he was active on this forum.

I trust the Mazuri folks. Way back when, I understood that this product was 'invented' for zoos to feed to their giant tortoises. I've trusted it ever since, and I use it once a week for my Aldabrans .

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No. In fact I've never heard of Ed Pirog.
I've sent you a PM

ZEROPILOT said:

I use Mazuri. I have for almost a decade now. However, on another site, a very well known Redfoot breeder cautioned me about Mazuri and with his permission, this is what he sent to me:

"Commercial foods like Mazuri are primarily soy and grain based and the lectins in grains and the phytic acid in soy cause all manner of issues for tortoises.
Phytic acid blocks the uptake of a number of minerals critical to overall tortoise function and the lectins in grains cause lower G.I. issues."

This person also suggests feeding Redfoot tortoises a diet that is primarily fruit. As much as 80%.

I just thought I would pass this along to share and ponder over.

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This is a good topic ed. I don't feed mazuri or any equivalent. I don't know much about it. However I had 2 redfoots with runny stool and thought mazuri was going to be the problem fixer. I can't get mazuri. Also I was feeding my reds dried cat biscuits. Not a lot but too often. I have since for the last 2 months ish stopped all cat biscuits and increased there fruit intake. All my torts stool is firm but moiste except for 1. This 1 is getting there though.
If I offer lets say papaya with other stuff guess what goes first, yep, papaya. If you offer papaya all year round they will become addicted to it as they do in the wild. However in the wild mother nature puts a stop to the gorging on fruits by forcing a dry season. So during dry season they get little fruit and probably less protein. At this stage growth slows down too.
Back to the wet season when fruit is plentiful, I can't imagine that a red foot that comes across all the fallen ripe fruit passes it up for some weeds. At this period of yr the fruit intake has to be the majority of intake. 70% ish i believe. Then in dryer times a lot less, balancing the diet over a year, not a day or a week. So wet season = fast growth with plenty of high fibre fruits and protein and dry season growth slows right down. I'm not sure yet of the diet during dry season. This is next on my to learn list amongst many many other things. I'm guessing grasses,weeds,flowers and some protein.
This is just my opinion with some stuff I've been reading and input from others.

Back to mazuri, is there a big difference using it on herbivores compared to omnivores? I don't know. Looks that way to me though with what I read on here.
Is there anyone out there with a redfoot or yellowfoot that has a smooth carapace and has fed mazuri on a regular basis from a juvenile?

ZEROPILOT said:

I use Mazuri. I have for almost a decade now. However, on another site, a very well known Redfoot breeder cautioned me about Mazuri and with his permission, this is what he sent to me:

"Commercial foods like Mazuri are primarily soy and grain based and the lectins in grains and the phytic acid in soy cause all manner of issues for tortoises.
Phytic acid blocks the uptake of a number of minerals critical to overall tortoise function and the lectins in grains cause lower G.I. issues."

This person also suggests feeding Redfoot tortoises a diet that is primarily fruit. As much as 80%.

I just thought I would pass this along to share and ponder over.

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Another thought of the high fruit intake for part of the year I keep having is. Is this natures way of helping to fend off bladder stones? Does the increased bowel movement cleanse the system out?

The person has asked that I NOT include his name and if you've figured out who it is please don't contact him.
He doesn't want to argue with anyone and has asked me to ad that he has 44 years of experience....Quite a lot.

Anyfoot said:

This is a good topic ed. I don't feed mazuri or any equivalent. I don't know much about it. However I had 2 redfoots with runny stool and thought mazuri was going to be the problem fixer. I can't get mazuri. Also I was feeding my reds dried cat biscuits. Not a lot but too often. I have since for the last 2 months ish stopped all cat biscuits and increased there fruit intake. All my torts stool is firm but moiste except for 1. This 1 is getting there though.
If I offer lets say papaya with other stuff guess what goes first, yep, papaya. If you offer papaya all year round they will become addicted to it as they do in the wild. However in the wild mother nature puts a stop to the gorging on fruits by forcing a dry season. So during dry season they get little fruit and probably less protein. At this stage growth slows down too.
Back to the wet season when fruit is plentiful, I can't imagine that a red foot that comes across all the fallen ripe fruit passes it up for some weeds. At this period of yr the fruit intake has to be the majority of intake. 70% ish i believe. Then in dryer times a lot less, balancing the diet over a year, not a day or a week. So wet season = fast growth with plenty of high fibre fruits and protein and dry season growth slows right down. I'm not sure yet of the diet during dry season. This is next on my to learn list amongst many many other things. I'm guessing grasses,weeds,flowers and some protein.
This is just my opinion with some stuff I've been reading and input from others.

Back to mazuri, is there a big difference using it on herbivores compared to omnivores? I don't know. Looks that way to me though with what I read on here.
Is there anyone out there with a redfoot or yellowfoot that has a smooth carapace and has fed mazuri on a regular basis from a juvenile?

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Yes. My female named Julio was fed Mazuri quite a bit a got her as a hatchling and she is now about 10".
Smooth but not 100%. Very healthy. Never been ill.

ZEROPILOT said:

Yes. My female named Julio was fed Mazuri quite a bit a got her as a hatchling and she is now about 10".
Smooth but not 100%. Very healthy. Never been ill.

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Nice looking Redfoot !

I really think this discussion is good for all of us. Myself , I don't make a science out of feeding , but ...

My background includes a substantial education in nutrition. It was also a hobby of mine with physical training. One thing really stands out - variety is a major key to overall health.

Mixing it up , not getting in a rut , and introducing new items keeps the system operating in peak performance.

No matter how good chicken and peas are for you - if that is all you ate eventually you would be malnourished and suffer health problems. Same with our torts.

We get people on the forum that have fed their sulcatas Romaine lettuce and kale exclusively for years. And even if their torts look healthy we know internal damage is being done.

Even an excellent food like hibiscus can't be the only diet. It is understandable that a zoo might feed a composit food like mazuri in large quantity. They need something with high nutrition , supplements and easily stored.

My small group is all I have and it is no problem for me to grow plants , use stuff I can buy , and mix it up.

As a part of variation , Mazuri fits right in.

I'm enjoying reading everyone's opinions on this subject. One thing that stands out to me, was posted by Anyfoot - and that is mother nature. For one example, the opuntia cacti in the desert. When the cactus blooms and sets fruit, one might see a couple or three desert tortoises sitting under the plant gorging on the fallen fruit. But this is seasonal. Once all the fruit is gone, it's back to foraging for anything edible they can find, which is mainly dead or dying plants and weeds.

I'm unfamiliar with how things grow in South America, and don't know if fruit is plentiful year round, but my guess would be that it's seasonal down there too. So a steady diet of fruit all the time wouldn't be a good thing. But I don't know for sure...just a guess.

Yvonne G said:

I'm enjoying reading everyone's opinions on this subject. One thing that stands out to me, was posted by Anyfoot - and that is mother nature. For one example, the opuntia cacti in the desert. When the cactus blooms and sets fruit, one might see a couple or three desert tortoises sitting under the plant gorging on the fallen fruit. But this is seasonal. Once all the fruit is gone, it's back to foraging for anything edible they can find, which is mainly dead or dying plants and weeds.

I'm unfamiliar with how things grow in South America, and don't know if fruit is plentiful year round, but my guess would be that it's seasonal down there too. So a steady diet of fruit all the time wouldn't be a good thing. But I don't know for sure...just a guess.

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I'm lead to believe that there are fruiting trees year round in south america in one part or another. But a redfoot doesn't wander the length and width of South America to find fruit. So it will eat the ripe fruit from within its vicinity, which will be seasonal.
I was reading the other day about one study that suggested a redfoot will wander on average 87metres/95yards within a day within the same vicinity. So foraging in the same area then retreating back to the same burrows for the night, in groups too. So it becomes familiar with that area. This, I thought tallied up with the fact what we all say about a tort sulking in a new enclosure that it's not familiar with.

Anyfoot said:

This is a good topic ed. I don't feed mazuri or any equivalent. I don't know much about it. However I had 2 redfoots with runny stool and thought mazuri was going to be the problem fixer. I can't get mazuri

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This is supposed to be the UK equivalent of mazuri
https://www.kiezebrink.co.uk/product/323-nutrazu-tortoise-diet-114kg