Coconut Oil

I've used the EVCO for a while now , although since my torts live outside in So Florida , only about once every couple weeks.

I do not use any lamps at all. So my use is for a bit of a different reason. Due to the high humidity and rainy season here , we have more mold / mildew / and maybe even bacteria thriving. EVCO has been shown to resist these things.

In researching what is known about EVCO I find numerous recommendation of this product for skin and hair for people - along with good science to back it up. I have long been a bit reluctant to just use any chemical mix sold as skin softener - especially if you read the ingredient lists. So I use it for that also.

It has been argued on this thread that EVCO is not "natural" , I would guess meaning it is not available to their shells in their wild environment. And this is the only point i would like to address.

I see this attitude in many threads on husbandry for torts. It is not " natural " or they don't get that in the " wild" as if our job as keepers entails duplicating the natural environment to great detail our particulate tortoise evolved in

In the most basic sense I see the value and logic of this. However , I find myself I attempt to provide not an equal of a wild environment , rather an improvement on it.

I have a Sulcata and an Aldabra. In their natural environments they would encounter drought , predation, exposure to parasites , times of extremely limited food sources , and extreme temperature and moisture gradients.

All of these I improve on. For this reason my charges are most probably healthier and grow faster than they would if they were born in their wild environments.

If they are injured I would use antibiotics. When the humidity decreases in Florida here I provide more water, and sprinklers. I am careful to provide a great variety of proper foods, most if not all that would not be found in their native environments but have the proper mix of nutrients for them. I provide calcium supplement as well.

If you think about how we treat ourselves - we have created numerous " unnatural" products that we freely use to improve our health and lives; Albeit we often go too far and do more damage than good.

We freely use aspirin , antibiotics, vitamins, herbal products , prescription drugs, and imported foods that are not " natural " in the regions we live. But when it comes to the use of a biological product like EVCO the argument is it is not " natural ".

There may be good, biological reasons NOT to use it on shells - although in all this thread I've not seen an argument that convinces me of this. The jury is still out.

But I use it now as I described , and see no good reason not to.

Shiny shells. Slightly overgrown beak.

The trouble I have with your study is that there is no control group, no way to calibrate an ideal dose, and that with tortoises it takes years, sometimes decades, to see certain results. Some results are quick. Some aren't. I've seen both in my nearly 40 years as a keeper.

johnsonnboswell said:

Shiny shells. Slightly overgrown beak.

The trouble I have with your study is that there is no control group, no way to calibrate an ideal dose, and that with tortoises it takes years, sometimes decades, to see certain results. Some results are quick. Some aren't. I've seen both in my nearly 40 years as a keeper.

Click to expand...

I don't presume to speak for the OP , but following this thread. I think " shiny shells" has never been the goal. It is even growth, and health of tort in and out. Especially keratin growth and bone density. And as he points out , the potential damaging effects of indoor husbandry.

And your comment about the problem being not a long enough trial or control group ? I'm sorry , but that almost never occurs with hobbiests, and yet advances are still made that eventually are proving great value.

Just look at the issues of pyramiding and its relationship to dehydration and a humid / water available environment. This went against the too much food - rapid growth crowd and caused heated debate

That advance is still being argued in the hobby with some saying it's unnatural , we don't know the long term effects , or arguing it is still just a diet issue.

Sometimes we do experiment given our best experience and knowledge. Sometimes we get it wrong , sometimes in spite of lack of double blind studies we get lucky and get it right

Tortoises live a long time. I am not one to wait for a 30 year scientific study to confirm a hypothesis before I'm willing to use my best research and judgment in applying a new idea.

I applaud what Glitch is doing. Far more effort and research than I could have time for. It may or may not eventually be shown to have substantial merit. Only time will tell.

But I know before the high humidity / plenty of water / soaks method of raising sulcata was overwhelmingly shown ( anted orally BTW - NOT double blind scientific 30 year studies ) I implemented it

johnsonnboswell said:

Shiny shells. Slightly overgrown beak.

The trouble I have with your study is that there is no control group, no way to calibrate an ideal dose, and that with tortoises it takes years, sometimes decades, to see certain results. Some results are quick. Some aren't. I've seen both in my nearly 40 years as a keeper.

Click to expand...

Hey home skillet.. I respectfuly must say we have been working on the beak trim on my Nibbles, its a slow process and its not hindering his eating in the least bit. I have stated from the very beginning this does much more then make the shell shiny..

I know very much how much it bugs sooo many of you that i do not have a control group in what i am doing... its bugs you all oh so much. And i completely get why... Its not science unless its done the ol fashiioned way using proper research methods and establishing peer reviewed articles in respected scientific journals.. I am sorry.. maybe one day down the line i can do that.. But i have so many other priorities that i do not have the time to partake in such an task. I am going school full time into neuropsychology.. with a baby on the way in 66 days.. I don't have 30 years to do a double blind study with adequate sample groups, let alone a place to house all these lovely tortoises and perform such a task...

Yes there is a simply way to calibrate dose... The dose is simply the surface area of the beta and alpha keratin of the shell. Since each tortoise is different in size each "dose" will be different too. A couple small finger scoops is all you need... and just wipe off the excess if you feel the desire too. It gets absorbed very quickly into the beta and alpha keratin. A thin layer is all you need. I can control how many times i apply the oil though.. Which is most important because it takes 4 days around to decompose into lactic acid, once decomposed into lactic acid though its lost its properties of protection it seems from my readings, it has refractive properties that absorb "unfiltered" IR-A that these artificial lamps emit.. i have shown that.. I can also go into greater detail which i will in another post about the biology of this oil and its effect and beta and alpha keratin, which mike so nicely stated he is unsure of its effects.. I have pieced more pieces of the puzzle together.

Alaskamike said:

I've used the EVCO for a while now , although since my torts live outside in So Florida , only about once every couple weeks.

I do not use any lamps at all. So my use is for a bit of a different reason. Due to the high humidity and rainy season here , we have more mold / mildew / and maybe even bacteria thriving. EVCO has been shown to resist these things.

In researching what is known about EVCO I find numerous recommendation of this product for skin and hair for people - along with good science to back it up. I have long been a bit reluctant to just use any chemical mix sold as skin softener - especially if you read the ingredient lists. So I use it for that also.

It has been argued on this thread that EVCO is not "natural" , I would guess meaning it is not available to their shells in their wild environment. And this is the only point i would like to address.

I see this attitude in many threads on husbandry for torts. It is not " natural " or they don't get that in the " wild" as if our job as keepers entails duplicating the natural environment to great detail our particulate tortoise evolved in

In the most basic sense I see the value and logic of this. However , I find myself I attempt to provide not an equal of a wild environment , rather an improvement on it.

I have a Sulcata and an Aldabra. In their natural environments they would encounter drought , predation, exposure to parasites , times of extremely limited food sources , and extreme temperature and moisture gradients.

All of these I improve on. For this reason my charges are most probably healthier and grow faster than they would if they were born in their wild environments.

If they are injured I would use antibiotics. When the humidity decreases in Florida here I provide more water, and sprinklers. I am careful to provide a great variety of proper foods, most if not all that would not be found in their native environments but have the proper mix of nutrients for them. I provide calcium supplement as well.

If you think about how we treat ourselves - we have created numerous " unnatural" products that we freely use to improve our health and lives; Albeit we often go too far and do more damage than good.

We freely use aspirin , antibiotics, vitamins, herbal products , prescription drugs, and imported foods that are not " natural " in the regions we live. But when it comes to the use of a biological product like EVCO the argument is it is not " natural ".

There may be good, biological reasons NOT to use it on shells - although in all this thread I've not seen an argument that convinces me of this. The jury is still out.

But I use it now as I described , and see no good reason not to.

Click to expand...

You stated that perfectly... I can not tell you how many people say that it is not "natural" to me about this idea. Its hard to explain it like you did so nice and clear... Just perfect.. People do not realize that -----^

I was interested into the biological component of this whole idea... And here is what i have come up with thru my research.

Keratin is made out of proteins.. You have beta keratin and alpha keratin. Beta means basic. Alpha means acidic.
The proteins are made out of amino acids. These amino acids are bound together by bonds between the molecules. Disulfide and i believe covelant.

These amino acids are structured in 2 ways. Alpha keratin is combined in helixes bound by disufide bridges. The more disulfide bridges the stronger the alpha keratin. This is good. Problem is.. These bonds are water sensitive gaining and loosing water readily.. Now beta keratin are pleated sheets of bound amino acids.. These bound amino acids are subject to the same issue as alpha keratin i explained before. They are also water sensitive..

These bonds happen to be hydroscopic and are very sensitive to envirornmental influence of humidity and water intake and dehydration. That means any source that emits dehydrating heat will severely impact both alpha and beta keratin. This means every single lamp used in indoor reptile keeping, especially tortoises are literally baking off the water needed for intracellular function of both beta and alpha keratin. I have described the effects of 'unfiltered' IR-A and grounded that idea. (Pg 7) So we know that these lamps are super super awesome dehydrators. Yet.. Many do not realize the effect these lamps are having on our tortoises biologically..

Did you know alpha keratin gives rise to beta keratin in tortoises? It is a precursor to making beta keratin pleated sheets. Essentially the alpha keratin is formed using single helixes bond together, then is transformed into dead pleated helixes bound together in sheets (beta keratin). That means alpha keratin is performing functions within those cells that eventually turn into the beta keratin sheets. I read this was referred to as intracellular hydraulics, which is responsible for the nutrient distribution to the cells for living and function.. This hydraulic system is EXTREMELY sensitive to water. If you decrease the hydrogen bonds through out the amino acids of the protein you are decreasing hydraulic function of the cells.

BUT... the tortoise has a solution to counter this menacing attack on its beta and alpha keratin from artificial lamps. Its called proliferation.. As poor hydration/humidity/ and lack of microclimate takes its toll on the beta and alpha keratin proteins... The dehydration of hydrogen between these bonds makes the alpha and beta keratin kick into protection mode.. The only thing it can do is make more beta keratin to try and stop the dehydration of its intracelluar hydraulic system. That means creating massive beta keratin sheets... which are humidiity sensitive.. this extra proliferation has bad effects on the underlying bone.. The mechanical stress is multiplied for every turned alpha keratin protein into beta keratin protein as to try and counteract poor hydrated enviroments.. If you look at the shape of a scute you will notice its shaped in a way that if dried would resemble a bowl. Think of that for a minute..

A scute that when dries curls up as the amino acids loose all its water bonds. This curling is exerrting mechanical stress on the bone below... Now if you have a poor diet in combination with poor hydration this effect is going to multiplied SEVERELY, the scute will start to want to curl... and will easily deform the growing bone... If you feed a correct diet but offer very poor hydration it may still not be enough to stop the mechanical stress from the extra proliferation of beta keratin sheets... From what i have read ... Many breeders tried so hard to put strict diet standards on there tortoise to no avail and then someone puts the humdiity up on accident and boom smooth tortoise shell. Its clear why.. Combine high humidity with proper diet and you clearly get very nice growing , healthy , tortoises.

Think why you need such humid, hydrated habitats... Think why its recommended for many torts high heat, high humidity, which have shown excellent results. You are in a battle with artificial lamps 24/7! The moment that lamp turns on the moment alpha and beta keratin proteins are effected and change in there biology as a result..

We can even talk about the skin now... The skin is made of alpha keratin.. with some beta keratin as well.. Along with deeper tissues and blood vessles... These tissues also have intracelluar hydraulic properties that are also effected by artificial lmaps... Now think of a tortoise exposed to very dry , little water, little humidiity, synthesis of pre D3 occurs in the skin.. But yet... that is all processed by intracelluar hydraulic movements which is being severely effected by a lack of bonds between the keratins and tissues. So now we have a lamp that is effecting pretty much every single part of a tortoise.. Not one part is not effected by drhydration of the bonds between these proteins.

Interesting, do you think it will work on the Aldabra too?

Soefianto said:

Interesting, do you think it will work on the Aldabra too?

Click to expand...

If I were raising my Aldabra in a less than 50% humidity environment with artificial sunlight lamps I would be using it regularly.
Mine is raised outdoors.
I still put it on my aldabra at least once every 2 weeks

Do you mind detailed your complete setup (substrate, hide details, where you wet down and if anywhere you don't, specific feeding) - I think it would really help.

I read somewhere that someone recommended Argan oil over Coconut oil (both cold pressed, organic, etc.) - do you have any thoughts on this? They recommended it because they stated Argan oil was a lighter oil. I have heard that it is far superior to the health/protection of human hair that I believe also contains keratins so I thought I'd ask.

Thank you so much!

l512 said:

Do you mind detailed your complete setup (substrate, hide details, where you wet down and if anywhere you don't, specific feeding) - I think it would really help.

I read somewhere that someone recommended Argan oil over Coconut oil (both cold pressed, organic, etc.) - do you have any thoughts on this? They recommended it because they stated Argan oil was a lighter oil. I have heard that it is far superior to the health/protection of human hair that I believe also contains keratins so I thought I'd ask.

Thank you so much!

Click to expand...

Your inquiry on Argan Oil made me happy. Here is some chemistry is was able to dig. And man does it look promising..

Argan oil contains 200% more tocopherols (Vitamin E) than olive oil, acting as an important antioxidant and free-radical scavenger. It protects the fibroblast of the skin (the cells that make collagen, elastin, and the glycoproteins of the extracellular matrix). It also improves your skin’s water-binding ability, increases the natural moisture content of the skin, boosts the effectiveness of your sunscreen, prevents and treats scars, plus heals damaged skin.



Argan oil offers 771 mg of tocopherols per kg of oil. That’s more than DOUBLE the 320 mg/kg found in olive oil! (Source: Eur. J. Lipid Sci. Technol. 2011; 113: 403-408) And while doctors recommend you look for skin care products that include a minimum of 0.5% tocopherols, argan oil typically offers 5-9% tocopherols!



Tocopherols also help the skin to absorb other compounds and studies show it’s well-absorbed by human skin.



It’s also worth mentioning that pure argan oil is reported to contain 300% more tocopherols than skincare products that include argan oil in a series of ingredients due to the poor solubility of tocopherols in solvents. Which means you’re better off spending your money on pure argan oil, as the purity preserves the integrity of the Vitamin E!



Essential Fatty Acids



Argan oil includes high levels of fatty acids, primarily oleic (Omega 9) and linoleic (Omega 6) acids, which are both easily absorbed by the skin. Fatty acids are essential to the health of your cellular membranes – keeping the skin elastic and firm, and improving moisture retention. They are also critical in the formation of prostaglandin, which acts as a natural anti-inflammatory and healing agent.



A Breakdown Of The Fatty Acids In Argan Oil







Oleic Acid 43-49.1%

Linoleic Acid 29.3-36%

Stearic Acid 4.3-7.2%

Palmitic Acid 11.5-15%



Source: Journal of Pharmacy & Pharmacology 2010; 62: 1669-1975



Natural Antioxidants



Argan oil is high in natural antioxidants that, when applied externally, help to protect your skin from environmental factors like chemicals, pollution, and sun damage – preventing free radical damage, assisting in skin repair and rejuvenation, and giving your skin that hard-to-achieve "glow."



Not only does it include exceptionally high levels of tocopherols, but it also includes traces of copper, which not only acts as an antioxidant, but also supports collagen production for more youthful looking skin.



Squalene



Squalene is a polyunsaturated hydrocarbon liquid that is naturally produced by your skin. It functions very much like Vitamin E, acting as an important antioxidant, protecting against free radical damage while preventing the breakdown of your skin's natural collagen and elastin, which is what keeps your skin looking firm and youthful.



Squalene contains lipoproteins that help to prevent the formation of harmful peroxides that can destroy important vitamins in your skin. Plus, squalene has many wound healing and antibacterial properties that make it an excellent choice for those suffering with eczema and psoriasis.



It's deeply moisturizing and acts as an emollient, helping to prevent water loss from the skin. It is also quickly absorbed without making your skin feel greasy.



Polyphenols



Argan oil contains high levels of polyphenols, which fight sun damage and photoaging with UV protection. They also help promote skin repair with anti-inflammatory, anti-septic, and free-radical fighting properties.



In particular, argan oil contains high levels of Ferulic Acid, which is prized because it actually increases in potency as an antioxidant when exposed to sunlight, making it particularly effective in helping to prevent photoaging. Other phenols in argan oil include vanillic acid, syringic acid, tyrosol, catechol, resorcinol,(-)-epicatechin and (+)-catechin.



Sterols



Sterols help prevent skin aging by promoting moisture retention as well as optimizing the function of the skin barrier. Sterols are important for healthy skin because they mimic the effects of cholesterol on the skin, and cholesterol is an important part of the skin's epidermal layer and contributes to overall skin health.



Sterols have been shown to help prevent wrinkles and increase skin elasticity.



Plus argan oil contains the very rare D-7 stigmasterol, which is highly regarded for treating skin diseases and healing wounds and compromised skin tissue.



Triterpene Alcohols



Argan oil also contains a series of triterpene alcohols, which are noted for their potent anti-inflammatory action. Initially studies reported this action occurring upon ingestion, but more recent studies are now showing that they act as an anti-inflammatory when applied topically as well. This may well be another reason why argan oil is known to be so effective for healing a variety of skin conditions including acne, eczema, and psoriasis.

* few concerns. Argan oil is very expensive. Only one country makes it, which is in Morocco. It is a very hard to make. Very few can make it and industrialize it. Unlike coconut oil which is widely processed and made all over. But with the best coming out of Indonesia. I will be digging deeper and I might even start a seperate thread on it. Also the acids it turns into are unfamiliar to me. So I want to study how those acids affect keratin. But looks very promising. Lots of photoaging antioxidants. Thank you. I'll post my set up in detail soon.

l512 said:

Do you mind detailed your complete setup (substrate, hide details, where you wet down and if anywhere you don't, specific feeding) - I think it would really help.

I read somewhere that someone recommended Argan oil over Coconut oil (both cold pressed, organic, etc.) - do you have any thoughts on this? They recommended it because they stated Argan oil was a lighter oil. I have heard that it is far superior to the health/protection of human hair that I believe also contains keratins so I thought I'd ask.

Thank you so much!

Click to expand...

Argon oil is becoming all the rage in skin and hair care, as well as edible in foods for health benefits. Comes from Morocco I believe, from the Argon Tree nuts. It would be interesting if someone would do the same type of experiments as Glitch here with Argon. But it takes time and allot of research of properties, as well as consistent application and follow-up even to get anecdotal indications of benefits or drawbacks.

I assume you are asking Glitch for his set up, so I won't comment on that..

Funny, I posted my comment above just as Glitch was posting his research on Argon oil.

Jeeeezzz, I'm gittin' old...... maybe need some argon for MY skin hahahaha

One more thing I was thinking about when I read your response was the potential breakdown of the oil's heating point. I know olive oil gets toxic at certain heats, coconut oil has different breakdown temps and I'm not sure what, if any toxicity issues exist with argan oil in a cool temp, room temperature temp, or high temps that the tortoises bask at. I guess I would wonder that for any oil? I know that Vitamin E also has toxicity levels so I'm just curious. There's a website you might be interested ewg.org - it's the Environmental Working Group, a watchdog reference site for all things toxic. It started out with ingredients and produts to keep manufacturers honest (they rate toxic levels of things like sunscreen, beauty products broken down by ingredient) but now they do much, much more. It might help in your efforts. I'll try and find out some information also. I know if they make tortoise shell protection/conditioners from chemical-based synthetic ingredients, all-natural must be safer and better. I agree that the lights do damage, are unnatural and they need protection, it's just hard to know what the best "protection" is.

I lied, couple more questions. In Hawaii there's a nut oil called Kukui Nut oil - I belive they call it Candlenut or Kemiri in other parts of the world and it is the equivalent in Hawaii to the mainland use of Vitamin E as an all-healer/protector. It's light and doesn't leave an oily residue when applied but much more nourishing than coconut oil. It is used for medicinal purposes, healing and cooking. The University of Hawaii has done extensive studies on it's benefits for safely treating radiation burns in cancer patients and dramatically improving eczema and psorisis. The other oil I would be curious about is Macadamia Nut Oil. It's a natural oil that's closest to the skin's sebum and a natural water attractor. Both oils are highly emmoillent, expensive (but so little is used) and again I'm not sure of either toxicity level when heated to over 100 degrees but it would be interesting to compare to Coconut and Argan oils.

This is all extremely interesting and is making me want to buy coconut (or whatever oils I can) for my tortoises to use occasionally. What exact brands do you recommend using as I am sure some are safe and some are not for tortoises?

Cold-pressed Kukui nut oil (that I know of) is done on Hawaii's north shore in Haleiwa town by Oils of Aloha. They are a primary suppplier here on the mainland and around the world. It is cold-pressed and pure. My concern with Kukui oil is it contains saponins and I'm not sure if they are toxic to tortoises. I'm also not sure if Coconut, Macadamia, and Argan oil also contain the same. The thing with plant based oils is that some plants naturally have "toxic" ingredients that occur because mother nature wants to protect the plant and ward off plant eating predators. I have no idea what the case is with these oils, and/or if tortoise shells are absorbant like our human skin (largest organ so anything we put on it we're actually injesting), I just would rather bring it up than not consider it. Again, my gut is that all if it is better than the ingredients in some over the counter products.

Whether it's Kukui, Coconut, Argan or Macadamia nut - you want natural, organic of wild-crafted if possible ("organic" fda approved still allows pesticides, just in the last 3 months of the crop before harvest, "wild-crafted" means absolutely no additives or pesticides throughtout the life), 100%, and most-important is cold-pressed so the plant based oil is in it's natural chemical state.

Amazon has most of these items and all should be highest quality food grade in my opinion

I buy EVCO at a local grocery store in the health food section. We use it on our hair and skin too

glitch4200 said:

Hi everyone, so after reading a couple threads about conditioners for the shell of our tortoises I might have a good debatable topic here. I decided to do a little research about cold pressed extra virgin coconut oil. After carefully considering my sources. I have concluded the following: this oil is antibacterial, anti fungal, anti viral, anti inflammatory, unique fatty acids that penatrate to the micro level quickly giving efficient moisture , a natural sunscreen spf 10 (which blocks 90 percent uvb), it doesn't allow substrate to stick, it doesn't mess with thermoregulation as far as I can tell after multiple days of temp taking after first application, and lastly it makes one hell of a shine.
I am sure some of you see a particular issue of this being a natural sunscreen that blocks 90 percent of the thing our tortoises need the most of for proper bone development and overall health. But my question is does my little guy get more benefit from a weekly application of extra virgin coconut oil then not applying it?
My goal is longevity he is indoor captive and will be for the foreseeable future, mvb bulbs literally suck the moisture right out of our tortoises shells (got that info from a thread here) and being exposed to a mvb constantly day in and day out constantly sucking that moisture out isn't the best. Is there a way as tortoise keepers who can't bring outside at all times to help prevent some of that moisture loss? is it possible to give them some protection from the constant baking lights? I understand the importance of humidity and lighting needed for optimal health but is it also doing them a disservice by not giving them some sort of protection from the baking lights? Allowing their shells to stay moisturized on a table top setting without plucking the moisture from deep within? Of course moderation is absolute. Too much application and you block the good out. I am very curious to all your opinions.

So I decided to give it a try about a week ago, my Russian is in perfect health after getting a complete checkup with x-rays. So his shell has a small dent (possibly from shipping) but otherwise looks pretty smooth. After I bathed him, I applied a thin coat of extra virgin coconut oil, pretty instantaneously I saw a magnificent shine. I wanted to see how much would initially get absorbed which was quite a bit.. I let it sit for about a minute before I wiped it off with a super extra soft micro fiber cloth. He enjoyed every second of the massage too.. (went to school for massage therapy)even tortoises appreciate a good massage haha. 5 days later and it still has that healthy shine just not as vibrant as when first applied. This is very debatable as I know a lot of you have raised many many clutches of perfectly healthy tortoises without any topical oils, and are set in your opinions so please let's hear it and if am wrong in any of my information please correct me. Pictures provided

Click to expand...

Hi there,
My new girl Trinity has a very dry shell, and I was just thinking the same thing! How is your experiment going? Thanks for the pic of the right coconut oil. That help's alot. She didn't receive proper hydration with her previous owners, so I'm trying to get her shell more moist. Along the lines you can see how dry and dusty she is. Thanks

l512 said:

Do you mind detailed your complete setup (substrate, hide details, where you wet down and if anywhere you don't, specific feeding) - I think it would really help.

I read somewhere that someone recommended Argan oil over Coconut oil (both cold pressed, organic, etc.) - do you have any thoughts on this? They recommended it because they stated Argan oil was a lighter oil. I have heard that it is far superior to the health/protection of human hair that I believe also contains keratins so I thought I'd ask.

Thank you so much!

Click to expand...

Detailed set up for my male Russian.
3 lamps used in my habitats. I switch around currently to find best lamps. But I use mostly these.

1x mercury vapor bulb 100watt.
1x 75 Watt halogen flood lamp OR
1x 90 Watt halogen bulb (depends on room temp)
1x UVb t8 10% tube florescent

I use full coconut fiber for substrate, about 5" deep. And I have a sand base about 1" to give more height.

Temp range: I aim for ambient temp of 85 F all over the habitat minimum.

Basking temp: 97 F at main basking lamp, 88 F at second lamp.

Cool, moist *hides*: aim for 75 F.

My relative humidity is pretty bad. I struggle to keep it at 40 to 50%. Sometime it drops to 20%.



I soak the entire habitat down when I spray. I usually go through two or 3 quarts of water per spray down. My humidity will jump up too about 75% but by the end of the day it's back below 40%. If I skip a day of spraying my humidity drops to below 20%.. I don't keep humidity at 80%. I can't.. It's not possible on a semi open table top. Equilibrium always wins.

It looks like this when it's all nice and hydrated..

If it stayed nice and warm and was this moist it would be perfect..

But give those lamps 2 days... And it's completely dry. Completely. The humidity will fluctuate on average 30% to 40% on days I spray vs the next day of complete dehydration. Thst is very stressful to the biology of alpha and beta keratin. This is my worry. And my coconut oil applications ease that stress.

l512 said:

One more thing I was thinking about when I read your response was the potential breakdown of the oil's heating point. I know olive oil gets toxic at certain heats, coconut oil has different breakdown temps and I'm not sure what, if any toxicity issues exist with argan oil in a cool temp, room temperature temp, or high temps that the tortoises bask at. I guess I would wonder that for any oil? I know that Vitamin E also has toxicity levels so I'm just curious. There's a website you might be interested ewg.org - it's the Environmental Working Group, a watchdog reference site for all things toxic. It started out with ingredients and produts to keep manufacturers honest (they rate toxic levels of things like sunscreen, beauty products broken down by ingredient) but now they do much, much more. It might help in your efforts. I'll try and find out some information also. I know if they make tortoise shell protection/conditioners from chemical-based synthetic ingredients, all-natural must be safer and better. I agree that the lights do damage, are unnatural and they need protection, it's just hard to know what the best "protection" is.

Click to expand...

The breakdown temp of coconut oil is very high. It's extremely thermally stable. And it decomposes into organic acids when heated and offered moisture. . Like lactic acid is a prime decomposition of coconut oil when subjected to temps at 37c. And decent humidity..

l512 said:

Cold-pressed Kukui nut oil (that I know of) is done on Hawaii's north shore in Haleiwa town by Oils of Aloha. They are a primary suppplier here on the mainland and around the world. It is cold-pressed and pure. My concern with Kukui oil is it contains saponins and I'm not sure if they are toxic to tortoises. I'm also not sure if Coconut, Macadamia, and Argan oil also contain the same. The thing with plant based oils is that some plants naturally have "toxic" ingredients that occur because mother nature wants to protect the plant and ward off plant eating predators. I have no idea what the case is with these oils, and/or if tortoise shells are absorbant like our human skin (largest organ so anything we put on it we're actually injesting), I just would rather bring it up than not consider it. Again, my gut is that all if it is better than the ingredients in some over the counter products.

Whether it's Kukui, Coconut, Argan or Macadamia nut - you want natural, organic of wild-crafted if possible ("organic" fda approved still allows pesticides, just in the last 3 months of the crop before harvest, "wild-crafted" means absolutely no additives or pesticides throughtout the life), 100%, and most-important is cold-pressed so the plant based oil is in it's natural chemical state.

Amazon has most of these items and all should be highest quality food grade in my opinion

Click to expand...

I will take a look at this other oils . I have said from the beginning only the purest form of coconut oil will do. Unrefined, cold pressed, organic, extra Virgin coconut oil.

I want to remain on Coconut oil as it still has the best properties in what I am looking for.