Coconut Oil

WithLisa said:

A substance that not only dissolves keratin but also is carcinogenic...

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That is absolutely not true. So your saying that lactic acid is carcinogenic? to who? not humans? Don't believe me?

Here you go...
http://www.lactic-acid.com/in_the_human_body.html

Oh and its in food too..
http://www.lactic-acid.com/lactic_acid_in_food.html

it is a natural occuring compound in human bodies... if it was carcinogenic we would all have cancer and die. It builds up as muscle contractions occur and energy is released.

WithLisa said:

The spectrum of a heat lamp is not more dehydrating than the sun. This is just a problem of air temperature, humidity and localized heating.

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HUH?!.... a infrared heat lamp is WAY more dehydrating then the sun! Maybe not in terms of power of course but mimicking the spectrum of the sun being "unfiltered" in artifical lamps is 100% an issue here. It is 100% unnatural and is NEVER seen in nature. EVER. You expose a tortoise to 12 hours of constant bombardment of "unfiltered" IR and light EVERY SINGLE DAY they are housed inside. Granted they do not always sit under it... but when they do... its unnatural. Localized heating does NOT occur in nature. Localized heating is a man made problem associated with the engineering of the light bulb. When it was made it was not intended to be used on reptiles.. It was converted into a way to keep them.. It is flawed. It is not "filtered" hence unnatural to ALL kept reptile.

zenoandthetortoise said:

Why are you talking about infrared heat lamps? I thought we were discussing the IR signature of basking lights. Anyway, don't use them, the color and luminosity are inappropriate.

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Basking lamps = Infrared lamps. You of all people should understand this graph..


This is just a "reptile heat bulb" at 75 watts this is a commonly bought lamp used to supply "heat" (infrared)... Take a look at where this "basking lamp" peaks... 800 nanometers it peaks at infrared high infrared levels... That graph should be compared to graph below... you claim that basking lamps are different from infrared lamps... you would be incorrect. This common "basking lamp" as shown here peaks at the infrared wavelengths... So it is a infrared emitting bulb.. it just has a small amount of visible light... This is the IR signature of the basking lights... And the signature clearly shows it emits almost all infrared..

Now... let us go to the next most commonly used bulbs... a mercury vapor bulb. Lets do the same thing. But this bulb has mercury in its ballast.. So we should clearly see a high peak around the 280 nanometer to 320 nanometers also known as the UVB parameters for preD3 conversion.

This is old.. but you can clearly see how badly distributed they are in the mercury vapor bulb and compared to the sun shown by the red line, how evenly it is distributed. I am trying to find an up to date graph.

zenoandthetortoise said:

As for your shell concerns, here is a 2 year old shell that has been exclusively raised indoors. View attachment 126035View attachment 126036View attachment 126037

So how exactly would coconut help?

I reread some of the thread and appreciate your interest and passion, but why not channel that into educating your Facebook- Petco crowd on the basics? You know, the hydration and temperature bit.
Routine application of coconut oil is a solution in search of a problem. Good luck with that.

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That is a remarkable shell... but my question is..
What is your lighting set up? Bulbs? Wattage? Distance from carapace?
How often do you soak?
Ambient temps?
Basking temps?
Relative humidity?
Open or closed habitat?
What is your diet?
So your saying your tortoise gets almost 0% sun? All grown from lamps?
I am love it.
But i want to know the thermal signature of your tortoise as it basks under your lighting set up to show your how bad or good your tortoise is heating up.. Maybe you got it down. Maybe the right lighting set up will decrease localized heating and hot spots while basking. But it does not take away the "unfiltered" aspect of the light or heat that it is being exposed to constantly.

LMFAO.. have you ever been in those tortoise groups? Trying to tell them anything is like beating your head against the wall. Everyone has their own opinion of their version of doing it "right"... I have learned to keep my mouth shut. I tried putting that effort into educating people but i often just get into heated arguments about your wrong, I am right. Or no blah blah I have done it this way for 20 years.. It is draining ...It is very draining.. So i have decided to keep my mouth shut. This forum is one of the only outlets i truely respect in terms of tortoise keeping and the knowledge base this forum holds. I respect that. Hence, my tiptoeing around here.. and getting more aggressive in a public irrational forum like facebook..

glitch4200 said:

That is absolutely not true. So your saying that lactic acid is carcinogenic? to who? not humans? Don't believe me?

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Rancid oil not only contains carboxylic acids (for example lactic acid) but also cancerogenic substances. That's why it's dangerous and should not be consumed.

glitch4200 said:

HUH?!.... a infrared heat lamp is WAY more dehydrating then the sun! Maybe not in terms of power of course but mimicking the spectrum of the sun being "unfiltered" in artifical lamps is 100% an issue here.

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The spectrum of the basking lamp is missing a lot of visible light (that's why you can look directly into a basking spot but not into the sun), but the infrared spectrum is quite similar to the sun. What would you like to change with filtration?

Month 7 *UPDATE*
Napebbles gained 5.3 oz in 5 months.


Nibbles gained .5 oz this month.

Still both silky smooth growing.. still no issues with the coconut oil. Still seeing full activity and routines. Still munching as usual. Nibbles is 7 months into this. Napebbles is 5 months into these applications.

zenoandthetortoise said:

Why are you talking about infrared heat lamps? I thought we were discussing the IR signature of basking lights. Anyway, don't use them, the color and luminosity are inappropriate.
As for your shell concerns, here is a 2 year old shell that has been exclusively raised indoors. View attachment 126035View attachment 126036View attachment 126037

So how exactly would coconut help?

I reread some of the thread and appreciate your interest and passion, but why not channel that into educating your Facebook- Petco crowd on the basics? You know, the hydration and temperature bit.
Routine application of coconut oil is a solution in search of a problem. Good luck with that.

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This is a beauty for sure! ! !

bouaboua said:

This is a beauty for sure! ! !

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I still want to know exactly how he has his lighting all set up. That he has been able to achieve smooth excellent growth under full indoor captivity . I am interested.

zenoandthetortoise said:

The point is that I'm breaking no new ground. I'm compulsive with the details, but there are a multitude of care sheets that lay the groundwork and are successful without the need for shell conditioning. I can show you some IR imaging if you like when I'm back in town.

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I would LOVE to see some IR imaging when you get some time.

zenoandthetortoise said:

The point is that I'm breaking no new ground. I'm compulsive with the details, but there are a multitude of care sheets that lay the groundwork and are successful without the need for shell conditioning. I can show you some IR imaging if you like when I'm back in town.

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I am here to prove this oil has many benefits we as keepers can use that is safe and effective for our torts.

If this oil is doing all that I am saying it is doing.. That shouldn't be ignored.. At least I won't be ignoring it.. I don't care what anyone else does but the point is if this oil actually lowers the chance of dehydration, localized heating, moisture, moisture protection, UV, protection and absorb important points of infrared maybe this can be an added benefit to indoor keepers everywhere.

Maybe we wouldn't need to spray as much or soak as much, or even keep the humidity as high as we do (not saying I would stop) but misting my habitat 5x a day too keep ambient humidity up is excessive to me. Look at the reason your misting so often.... Ad offering high heat and high humidity also comes with increasing "unfiltered" IR, which even high humidity doesn't stop the lamp unfiltered rays. It helps but it doesn't get rid of the problem. You need an insane amount of water for it to be filtered. You mist and offer higher humidity specifically because of artifical lamps. That is the only reason. So if we have something that can ease that effect.. We wouldn't need to douse the habitat and tortoise oh so often.. At least this is my view and opinion of course based off of amateur research and obsessive tortoise syndrome.

Oh and let's not get into the issue of bulbs and moisture.. They pop like crazy when it's humid.. So enclosed habitats which require those bulbs subjected to high humidity just blow ALL the time. I tried it.. I stay with open table top.

I will soak almost every day regardless because it's still important for them to drink and there skin to absorb that water, but this oils ability could in the long run could create the ability to have more flexibility in there husbandry.

So I bought a calendar for this coconut thing I have been doing with my tortoises. I have another journal of temps separate from this one. This kinda roughly outlines my soaking, application day, dry periods, food fed, supplements given, and any toppers. I really don't feed fruit much but I did forget some fruit entries like one time each week if that. But kinda shows you what I have been recording.

This is fascinating. I'm a HUGE believer in coconut oil, there are studies of both coconut oil and kukui oil done by the University of Hawaii to alleviate the burns caused by radiation in cancer patients who are unable to use anything on their exposed skin. My concern would be if it was too much that became absorbed by the shell - approximately how much have you gone through over the past 7 months? Could there be any adverse effects from the tortoise potentially injesting and at what amounts (? - they they actually even injest through their shells, I know they would through their legs, head, etc). It's closest to a perfect food and the collostrum found in mother's milk. Using coconut oil to protect the shell makes sense at a high level and that practice has been practiced in Hawaiian cultures for centuries in several different topical applications. I'm excited to see where this study leads because from a birds-view, the damage from the high heat lamps, drying che, etc., even in a humid environment is incredibly hard on the tortoise shells, with or without soaking and humidity.

Just my super newbie tortoise opinion which bears no weight whatsoever, but long time skincare and body care extremely experienced opinion in seeing the very real results on clients over the past 17 years.

l512 said:

This is fascinating. I'm a HUGE believer in coconut oil, there are studies of both coconut oil and kukui oil done by the University of Hawaii to alleviate the burns caused by radiation in cancer patients who are unable to use anything on their exposed skin. My concern would be if it was too much that became absorbed by the shell - approximately how much have you gone through over the past 7 months? Could there be any adverse effects from the tortoise potentially injesting and at what amounts (? - they they actually even injest through their shells, I know they would through their legs, head, etc). It's closest to a perfect food and the collostrum found in mother's milk. Using coconut oil to protect the shell makes sense at a high level and that practice has been practiced in Hawaiian cultures for centuries in several different topical applications. I'm excited to see where this study leads because from a birds-view, the damage from the high heat lamps, drying che, etc., even in a humid environment is incredibly hard on the tortoise shells, with or without soaking and humidity.

Just my super newbie tortoise opinion which bears no weight whatsoever, but long time skincare and body care extremely experienced opinion in seeing the very real results on clients over the past 17 years.

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I appreciate your opinion. I would have to admit, I have no idea how much I have gone through. I know about a quarter container .. which is alot. I had to buy a new one because other stuff was old and got all weird and it started going bad. So I bought a new one .

My best guess of how much I have applied would be to take the area of my male and female shell and think of a super thick coating applied each time and on average of 10-13x a month of application, and times that by 7x months for my male and 5x months for my female. I use a finger scoop full majority of the time. It takes 2 finger scoops to get the entire top shell minus legs, and bottom shell, I dab his/her head on occasion but not always.

So I broke it down like this. I work at a tile store so I think in tiles. My male is like a 5x5 tile in area (roughly). So each application was roughly .1736 sq ft for my male. (5x5÷144=.1736 sqft ) x roughly 10-13 coconut oil applications a month = (.1736 sq ft × 12 application = 2.08 sq ft) about 2.08 sq ft of EVCO month now multiple this by 7 months.. (2.08 sqft x 7 months = 14.58 sq ft) and you get 14.58 sq feet of applied coconut oil.. mind you there is error to be mindful of. And many outside variables to effect that number.

Holy crap.. that is alot of coconut oil.. about 14.5 sq feet of coconut oil has absorbed or been applied into my male nibbles..

My female has been about 5 months so she had same application times as my male so just take (2.08 sq ft × 5 months = 10.4 sq ft) and you get 10.4 sq ft of applications.. that seems like a lot.

My Male Nibbles: 14.58 sq ft (roughly)of applied extra virgin coconut oil.

My female Napebbles: 10.4 sq ft (roughly) of applied extra virgin coconut oil.

Error: +/- 2.5

So what I am going to do is take my female to get a radiograph done to see her insides and bone development since she has gained almost 5.4 oz in 5 months in my care and I have seen growth lines measuring just under 1 inch and coming in nice and smooth , if I can show that the bone is coming on thick and strong, it only enhances this idea further because that is heft amount of oil absorption.

I wanted to share my new x-rays that I had done on my female russian tortoise Napebbles today. Now I can show you both tortoises x-rays side by side.

I want to point out my female has gained 5.3 Oz while in my care in 5 months and has grown a full inch longer in that time frame. She weighs 431 grams and she has growth lines at every scute lining. I consider that explosive growth.
But despite that explosive growth, the bone density on her is crazy solid all over with no impaction or build up and I don't see any spongy bone development. This radiographs of my female is after 5 months of my applications of evco and husbandry style. But my male x rays is actually September 2014 right before I started my coconut oil journey. So his x-rays are before any coconut oil was applied ever.

My male weighs 351 grams currently. And has gained small amounts of weight over time.

zenoandthetortoise said:

I've lost track of where we were with this, but here is a basking tort showing uniform temperature, no hot spots (note- the hood is throwing off the gradient reading, the highest ground temp is 102. View attachment 128255

Because a tortoise shell approximates a sphere, volume increases much more rapidly than surface area. So the larger the tort, the more diffuse heat source is needed to warm evenly.

I still don't get the fascination with the coconut oil

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Your calibration is off.. your using the wrong color scheme... your way to far away for proper calibration of taking accurate defined shell temps..

Get 6 inches away from the shell of the tortoise , calibrate gun, choose red to green/blue color scheme, and take multiple of readings wen they first are exposed to those lamps.. all your showing me is a warm tortoise. Your not close enough to show the variation of temps in the Shell, since it's such a wide shot it's incorporating the entire habitat ... which decreases the ability to define the shell and skin readings ..

But what you are showing me is that your lamps are creating hot spots on the surrounding environment. You can easily tell by the lighter color spots outside the scope of the tortoise.

So to me this isn't really showing what I was looking for. It's not clear.

How do you have your lamps set up?
What are you using for bulbs and wattage?
What is the distance from the bulbs to the top of the tortoises shell?

Unless your using some new style of bulbs , no matter what you do your still creating hot spots..
You showed me a pic like this.. calibrated at a far distance , so that it shows very little difference in the shell. But shows a lot of difference between shell and envirment.


But in reality you need to be calibrated within 6 inches , not multiple feet. And you will get something like this..


And them by changing the color scheme of the gun.. you can really tell the hot spots ..

I found that the color scheme you used is not as Clear as the red yellow blue scheme.


Even at a distance ..

zenoandthetortoise said:

but here is a basking tort showing uniform temperature, no hot spots (note- the hood is throwing off the gradient reading, the highest ground temp is 102.

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That simple statement is telling me that the ground is 102 degrees at groundlevel.. well a tortoise is a good couple inches off the ground. Which means that 102.. is now like 106 when the tortoise is sitting under the lamp without any shade. And I would almost bet 100$, that you are undoubtedly getting bad localized heating as a result from poorly disturbed infrared . If you look at your picture above the tortoise there is a whole bunch of light spots showing spike in temp readings .. those are uneven distribution patterns . If it was nice and even there would be very variation..

A side note: are those hay pellets in your enclosure ? The ground has a very crappy distribution pattern that looks severely dehydrated but it could be just me.

As you can see in my habitat the ground which is hydrated is unevenly being heated as it dissapates water moisture . The fact that your entire ground is hot tells me there is no water in it. Or very little. Or else there would be splotches

zenoandthetortoise said:

Come on man, don't make me regret this conversation. In no particular order:
"Hot spots" in the environment is called having a temperature gradient. It's a good thing and i work hard to maintain it.
I use 2 Herpstats from Spyderco Robotics to to control heat and light, utilizing T5HO, MVB, and a small incandescent all on separate timers for a dawn to dusk approach. Two CHEs on separate thermostats set up the temp gradient both within the enclosure and through the day and night cycles. I am completely OCD about environmental management and do not for a moment suggest this is all required, but maybe you could not insult my intelligence regarding the basics?
My apologies for the poor resolution screen shot, I am without my tablet currently and the camera memory card doesn't fit in my iPhone.

No hay pellets, that's cypress over 4inches of topsoil and coir.

The area that is hot is approximately 25% of the enclosure. Localized heating is a problem when it's a section of the shell not a zone the tort can warm up in.

The spikes above the tortoise are from the various fixtures being in the frame.

Thanks for the primer on IR camera use, but I've been through the certification class and am good to go.

You seem so excited that coconut oil is the solution that you keep changing what the problem is. It seems like 'unfiltered IR', uneven heating and the requirement to soak and mist have all been candidates. Why so dogmatic?
Anyway, keep your $100, I'd just buy more hygrometers or something.

Cheers!

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I was not trying to insult your intelligence. I was trying to understand. According to your thermal image your hottest spot in that picture is 136 degrees F. The bar on the left which shows the range says so. Maybe i am just confused. Is the gun calibrated wrong?

If your certified then i trust that you know how to take a picture. But that is dangerously high, would you not agree? If your OCD and 136 degrees is ok with you. I really would not know what to say. What fixtures? Your showing me a open area?.. How can you claim by that picture that there is no localized heating? I can see severe hot spots all around the tortoise ranging up to 136 degree F. If the environment is unevenly being heated, what makes you think the tortoises shell ans skin are not exposed to the same exact heating pattern? Those colors represent surface temperature, and according to the image provided its really unsafe temps. At what time during the day are there ranges of that extreme ever present in a natural habitat? Again, i am not trying to insult you, i am trying to understand. The basics you are showing me do not add up. I have never taken any course. I just read about it.

I never said coconut oil is a solution. I have stated that the only solution would be to "filter" Infrared bulbs (all artificial lamps) to mimick the sun "filtration" of IR-A, IR-B, IR-C and the other solution is to have your tortoise enclosed outdoors like in the wild under the natural sun. My fascination with coconut oil is its possibility to be a good addition in combating artificial lamps for strictly indoor kept tortoises. This in combination with daily soaks and properly hydrated habitat with humidity in the 50-60% range could be an excellent combination in furthering the life of some of these tortoises who are constantly exposed to artificial lamps. I can tell you right now constant exposure to these lamps in whatever lighting configuration are still creating unnatural conditions for the beta and alpha keratin that makes up the tortoise. As long as anyone is using artificial lamps and these lamps remain "unfiltered" in the reptile world, there will also be problems associated with them. This would mainly be localized heating and severe dehydration of beta and alpha keratin. Even offering a "zone" does not fully take away this effect. It only serves to lessen the effect. The effect will not go away unless you takes the source away. And that is "unfiltered" infrared radiation.

I am very passionate about this because i believe to be onto something, so i can be aggressive. I do mean this in the nicest way possible. I just want to understand.

*8 Month Update*

Nibbles: 8 month application





Napebble: 6 months application





had x-rays done on her to make sure she did not have any impaction or stones couple weeks ago. Here are her x-rays.