Do sulcata hatchlings routinely start eating immediately after they hatch?

(10-28-2012 07:19 AM)yagyujubei Wrote:  Do sulcata hatchlings routinely start eating immediately after they hatch?

Mine always have. I discovered this on my very first batch. I was under the mistaken impression that like many snakes and lizards, a recently hatched tortoise does not need or want to eat for a couple of weeks since it is still absorbing and getting nutrition from the yolk sac. I put my first hatchlings into a plastic shoe box on some damp paper towels as was recommended to me to help prevent any problems with the yolk sac drying out, tearing or adhering to anything, and the very first day they were nibbling on the paper towel. I threw in some greens and sure enough they ate them right up even with big yolk sacs protruding from their bellies. One member here won't use paper towels for this reason and uses clean washcloths or dishtowels instead. I find that with the greens and their egg shells, they don't eat the paper towels.

What about hatchling leopards? Same thing? My box turtles usually take about three weeks before they will eat anything.

(10-28-2012 07:29 AM)Tom Wrote:  

(10-28-2012 07:19 AM)yagyujubei Wrote:  Do sulcata hatchlings routinely start eating immediately after they hatch?

Mine always have. I discovered this on my very first batch. I was under the mistaken impression that like many snakes and lizards, a recently hatched tortoise does not need or want to eat for a couple of weeks since it is still absorbing and getting nutrition from the yolk sac. I put my first hatchlings into a plastic shoe box on some damp paper towels as was recommended to me to help prevent any problems with the yolk sac drying out, tearing or adhering to anything, and the very first day they were nibbling on the paper towel. I threw in some greens and sure enough they ate them right up even with big yolk sacs protruding from their bellies. One member here won't use paper towels for this reason and uses clean washcloths or dishtowels instead. I find that with the greens and their egg shells, they don't eat the paper towels.

It takes about a week or two before leopards start eating. The earliest I have seen a leopard eat is 3 days after completely hatching.

A friend of mine asked me to comment on this thread

With our sulcatas, I generally leave them in the incubator (in the vermiculite) for at least a few days before removing them. Being in the dark, they sit still and absorb their bellies, where if I take them out, they start running around, dragging this often massive umbilical around (sometimes tearing it on their own feet or each other). I don't have the space (or reason) to house them individually for a week, so I just leave them in the incubator. When I empty the sulcata incubator, I put them immediately in the bath tub and dribble the shower on a low setting so it kinda just splashes on them, and I leave them there literally for 3-5 hours. It cleans them very well and hydrates them fully (pic attached). I can't say I've ever noticed vermiculite in their early droppings, but I can say that the huge majority of them are with me at least several months before they sell, and we lose much less than 1% of baby sulcatas that are here with us (where if impaction was a common thing if they were left in the incubator, you would think we'd be losing much more in the first months with us). I think there's more to the argument that they aren't being hydrated properly in their early weeks leading to failures down the road whether it's liver or kidney or something else deteriorating; moreso than the argument that they're impacted on vermiculite.

On a second note, I often dig up "in ground" nests and find egg shells. I can't say I've ever pieced an egg back together and that none was eaten, but it certainly wasn't completely gone. I wouldn't be surprised if they munch on it while in the ground, as well as the mom's dropping (the mother pooping on top of the nest seems to happen with sulcatas more than other species). We dug up several in ground nests this year (Greeks, Hermanns, leopards, redfoots, yellowfoots, etc) and I can't think of one that didn't have any egg shells in it, sometimes also a baby or two that didn't get out with the group. Sulcatas we had no babies out of the ground this year, I guess/think I just didn't miss nests (last year we got 100 out of the ground). I almost fell asleep waiting for a leopard to finish laying eggs 2 nights ago and she didn't defecate on top of the eggs before filling it in.

So Ty Ty are you saying you think its a combination of eating vermiculite AND dehydration? Maybe yours pass any ingested substrate because of the long soaks and good hydration?

Got any theories about why five of mine are doing great, five are mediocre and 4 didn't do so well? When 6 out of 6 of MY babies right next door in the same enclosure are all doing as perfectly as can be? Got any ideas about why Dean had nearly the exact same ratio as I did with the exact same symptoms?

Having a necropsy done was a smart decision. It gave you facts to use instead of just guesses.

Thanks for sharing this Tom.

(10-29-2012 08:36 PM)Tom Wrote:  So Ty Ty are you saying you think its a combination of eating vermiculite AND dehydration? Maybe yours pass any ingested substrate because of the long soaks and good hydration?

Got any theories about why five of mine are doing great, five are mediocre and 4 didn't do so well? When 6 out of 6 of MY babies right next door in the same enclosure are all doing as perfectly as can be? Got any ideas about why Dean had nearly the exact same ratio as I did with the exact same symptoms?

Unfortunately, I don't know why some of yours are doing great and others aren't.... I'm just saying that I don't see a problem with impaction on vermiculite, and mine are left in it for their first 4-7 days from the time the egg cracks. Maybe the initial "flush" I do on them helps soften things up in there, I'm not sure, but we haven't lost a single baby sulcata this year (most of which are now a few months old). We had a few hundred of them this year, all left in the vermiculite early on to absorb their bellies. I know when raising other species, I've had one or two crash for no apparent reason within their first year, all were housed with their siblings who went on to do great. A friend of mine has similar things happen occasionally.... I hate to assume it's just Mother Nature calling them back, but it may be as simple as that. It could all come back to the mom of that particular clutch not having quite enough of this mineral or that vitamin. Some groups of babies seem to just do better than others for whatever reason, all else being the same. I don't usually hold on to sulcatas for very long (no plans to raise up babies), but we do raise many other species for use as future breeders, and some groups grow much faster than others, more bold than others etc.

Quote:Got any ideas about why Dean had nearly the exact same ratio as I did with the exact same symptoms?

If they all came from the same source, it makes sense that they came with whatever the "problem" was, but doesn't really pinpoint the problem.

Very interesting read so far! Thanks to all who have contributed, and thanks Tom for sharing about the tests.

(10-30-2012 07:33 AM)TylerStewart Wrote:  

(10-29-2012 08:36 PM)Tom Wrote:  So Ty Ty are you saying you think its a combination of eating vermiculite AND dehydration? Maybe yours pass any ingested substrate because of the long soaks and good hydration?

Got any theories about why five of mine are doing great, five are mediocre and 4 didn't do so well? When 6 out of 6 of MY babies right next door in the same enclosure are all doing as perfectly as can be? Got any ideas about why Dean had nearly the exact same ratio as I did with the exact same symptoms?

Unfortunately, I don't know why some of yours are doing great and others aren't.... I'm just saying that I don't see a problem with impaction on vermiculite, and mine are left in it for their first 4-7 days from the time the egg cracks. Maybe the initial "flush" I do on them helps soften things up in there, I'm not sure, but we haven't lost a single baby sulcata this year (most of which are now a few months old). We had a few hundred of them this year, all left in the vermiculite early on to absorb their bellies. I know when raising other species, I've had one or two crash for no apparent reason within their first year, all were housed with their siblings who went on to do great. A friend of mine has similar things happen occasionally.... I hate to assume it's just Mother Nature calling them back, but it may be as simple as that. It could all come back to the mom of that particular clutch not having quite enough of this mineral or that vitamin. Some groups of babies seem to just do better than others for whatever reason, all else being the same. I don't usually hold on to sulcatas for very long (no plans to raise up babies), but we do raise many other species for use as future breeders, and some groups grow much faster than others, more bold than others etc.

Quote:Got any ideas about why Dean had nearly the exact same ratio as I did with the exact same symptoms?

If they all came from the same source, it makes sense that they came with whatever the "problem" was, but doesn't really pinpoint the problem.

My results from the eggs out of my adults are the same as yours, but I think you already knew that. That is why this is such a shock to me. It appears that whatever you are doing works, and it appears that whatever I am doing works, but whatever was done for the first two or three weeks with this batch that I bought is not working for some of them. The 20 babies are all supposed to be selected from several clutches, so several different parents. Granted 20 babies is not enough to conclusively say anything, but the ones that are failing ARE all blocked up with vermiculite. For whatever reason yours are able to pass it, or don't eat it. Mine eat some of it, but they are only on vermiculite a short time, and they all pass what little they have ingested in their first bowel movements, so not an issue for mine. But for whatever reason, it apparently IS an issue for about 2/3 of the 20 two week old babies that I purchased. 7 of the 20 are doing fantastically, don't forget. My 5 big ones are the nicest looking sulcatas I have ever raised and super healthy in every way.

Also worth noting: As soon as mine hatch I remove them and put groups of 6 of them into shoe boxes or spring mix tubs with damp paper towels, some greens and their shells. They stay in there for about a week while their yolk sacs absorb. I have never had a single incident of a damaged yolk sac from the container or any of the other babies nails, or anything else.

Tom, you say the tortoises are selected from several different clutches. Is it possible that 5 are from a very healthy sulcata, 5 from a mediocre sulcata and 4 are from a weak sulcata?

This thread is fantastic. Tom you are wonderful. I would like to share a recent lengthy conversation i had with a well known respected tortoise breeder here in Florida. Several years back he lost most of his hatchlings, various species including sulcatas. Many developed close to full term and died right before hatching out. Making a very in depth conversation short, his water source being used for his incubation process was straight from the well, untreated other than by a softener. After many test it was concluded that all the deaths were directly due to a type of bacteria that is very common in our water down here in Florida. The hatchlings that did hatch out were very "puffy" and never had a chance.

Tom, I was wondering what symptoms did the ones that died and the ones that aren't thriving had / have?

(10-30-2012 03:09 PM)mercurysmom Wrote:  Tom, you say the tortoises are selected from several different clutches. Is it possible that 5 are from a very healthy sulcata, 5 from a mediocre sulcata and 4 are from a weak sulcata?

Yes. This is physically possible. To my knowledge all of the adults are equally well cared for and all healthy. The breeder is very knowledgeable, experienced and competent. I have seen pics of the adults and their enclosures and everything looks great. I have also talked at length with him about the care of his adults. Everything about his care of his adults sounds ideal.

He and I differ in our experiences and opinions of how to start hatchlings, but most people agree on how to care for adults.

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(10-30-2012 05:04 PM)ALDABRAMAN Wrote:  This thread is fantastic. Tom you are wonderful. I would like to share a recent lengthy conversation i had with a well known respected tortoise breeder here in Florida. Several years back he lost most of his hatchlings, various species including sulcatas. Many developed close to full term and died right before hatching out. Making a very in depth conversation short, his water source being used for his incubation process was straight from the well, untreated other than by a softener. After many test it was concluded that all the deaths were directly due to a type of bacteria that is very common in our water down here in Florida. The hatchlings that did hatch out were very "puffy" and never had a chance.

Hmmm...

The breeder suggested this as a possibility too. But my babies are all on city water. I drink it too and so do my babies that are in the same divided enclosure as these babies.

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(10-30-2012 05:49 PM)bigbeaks Wrote:  Tom, I was wondering what symptoms did the ones that died and the ones that aren't thriving had / have?

Little or no growth, general lethargy, lack of appetite or motivation to go over to one of the feeding stations and eat.

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(10-30-2012 05:04 PM)ALDABRAMAN Wrote:  This thread is fantastic. Tom you are wonderful. I would like to share a recent lengthy conversation i had with a well known respected tortoise breeder here in Florida. Several years back he lost most of his hatchlings, various species including sulcatas. Many developed close to full term and died right before hatching out. Making a very in depth conversation short, his water source being used for his incubation process was straight from the well, untreated other than by a softener. After many test it was concluded that all the deaths were directly due to a type of bacteria that is very common in our water down here in Florida. The hatchlings that did hatch out were very "puffy" and never had a chance.

Hmmm...

The breeder suggested this as a possibility too. But my babies are all on city water. I drink it too and so do my babies that are in the same divided enclosure as these babies.

(10-30-2012 06:29 PM)Tom Wrote:  Hmmm...

The breeder suggested this as a possibility too. But my babies are all on city water. I drink it too and so do my babies that are in the same divided enclosure as these babies.

All tortoises, ALL tortoises I own, are given RO water, fwiw. Hard water can play hob on hatchlings in my experience.

Btw, I don't incubate w/ vermiculite. I use dry perlite.