Well, I've learned that sulcatas are half the price of leopards as hatchlings, and sulcatas grow much bigger, and sulcatas have a more out-going personality. As in they're less shy.

So I sort of understand the benefits, as in them being a more personable species at a cheaper price. But when you take into account their size, why do so many people, who probably can't accommodate such a large tortoise, chose them over leopard, or russian or herman? Do they just see a cheaper baby tortoise and decide to go with it?

Also, why are sulcata babies half the price of most other tortoises? Do they have much larger clutches of eggs? I mean, you can get a sulcata hatchling for around $30 online. You can't say that about any other tortoise that I'm aware of.

Just something I've been wondering.

Supply and demand for the price question. There are ore sulcata breeders, therefore there are more sulcata babies. The more you have of something the lower the price usually. As to why they are more popular, price probably does play a factor in it, but I think the fact that they grow so large is another important factor, people like big tortoises and sulcatas do get big indeed.

I hear you, but I also think that many don't know how big sulcatatas get. We hear so many reports of "stray" sulcatas found wandering around the neighborhood. I have to wonder if some people just let them loose when they get too big to handle.

I know that happens a lot with reptiles. Snakes and monitors in particular. This is a huge problem in Florida. They're cute and cheap as hell as babies, but they grow up big.

It just concerns me that people may be buying them just because the price is right, but not knowing what they're getting themselves into. We're talking about the 3rd biggest tortoise on Earth here after Galapagos and aldabra. I doubt most buyers know this when they see a little one at the pet shop.

I am gonna disagree, I think most people do know how big they get, but that is in the future, they think that by the time that happens, they will have moved to a bigger place, some of course don't know, but I honestly think that most do know how big they get.

The number one factor for MOST persons = $$$$$ Cha Ching

Plain and simple~
Oh yea .....and the so called " PURE" gene sullies have flooded the market in the last 20 years, I'm surprised Costco/Sams dosnt sell them yet.

Same reason green iguanas are still just as popular leopard geckos and bearded dragons. Same reason burmese pythons were so popular for so long as equally as other snakes.....supply and demand.

Cute babies for really cheap. Doesn't matter how big the adults get.

(10-22-2012 05:30 AM)StudentoftheReptile Wrote:  Cute babies for really cheap. Doesn't matter how big the adults get.

Yup. That's what people want. Cute and cheap. Some buyers don't know how big they get, and others don't care. Even if it means they have to get rid of it later.

(10-22-2012 01:32 AM)Tortus Wrote:  I hear you, but I also think that many don't know how big sulcatatas get. We hear so many reports of "stray" sulcatas found wandering around the neighborhood. I have to wonder if some people just let them loose when they get too big to handle.

I know that happens a lot with reptiles. Snakes and monitors in particular. This is a huge problem in Florida. They're cute and cheap as hell as babies, but they grow up big.

What exactly is a big problem in Florida? People buying them on impulse as babies, or that people let them loose when they get too big?

Either way, your statement isn't entirely accurate. People buy big snakes and big lizards and big tortoises all over the country just as frequently as they do in Florida. Believe me, the appeal for large reptiles is not exclusive to citizens of the Sunshine State.

People letting them loose once they grow too large? Again, this happens everywhere. It's not like only Florida has all the irresponsible reptile keepers.

I believe what you are alluding to is that non-native exotic herps in general can survive a little better in southernmost Florida (not the entire state...not the southern "half" of the state...), than other parts of the U.S. Another topic altogether, but it has nothing to do with Florida having a larger demographic of reptile keepers who like to keep large snakes and lizards, or a higher population of irresponsible keepers.

The reason I CHOOSE sulcata's over other tortoises had nothing to do with the price. Sulcata's are active and dont hibernate and have great personalities. I personally think sulcata's are the coolest tortoise and most beautiful. They are tough looking with those huge spikey front legs. they also have such a beautiful shell. they grow to be massive which automatically make you the coolest tortoise owner on your block. hahaha thats why I chose sulcata.

I agree with the statements above that it's most likely due to supply and demand. Most people just getting into the hobby might not know the difference between species of tortoises, and so they go with the cheaper option. Sulcatas are a lot more prolific than leopards. Larger tortoises = larger clutch sizes and therefore larger amounts of hatchlings and an overall lower average price.

I know my opinion is laughable on the topic but since it was brought up, I do think the personality thing plays a roll in the decision. Leopards get a bad wrap for being boring and shy, so people go with the one that is more "personable" and popular. It's really just a moot point. Personality in tortoises means different things to different people. My own observations have shown that leopards are just as personable and, without the aggression of sulcatas, make really great pets....but hey, maybe I'm just a boring kinda guy.

(10-22-2012 07:17 AM)StudentoftheReptile Wrote:  

(10-22-2012 01:32 AM)Tortus Wrote:  I hear you, but I also think that many don't know how big sulcatatas get. We hear so many reports of "stray" sulcatas found wandering around the neighborhood. I have to wonder if some people just let them loose when they get too big to handle.

I know that happens a lot with reptiles. Snakes and monitors in particular. This is a huge problem in Florida. They're cute and cheap as hell as babies, but they grow up big.

What exactly is a big problem in Florida? People buying them on impulse as babies, or that people let them loose when they get too big?

Either way, your statement isn't entirely accurate. People buy big snakes and big lizards and big tortoises all over the country just as frequently as they do in Florida. Believe me, the appeal for large reptiles is not exclusive to citizens of the Sunshine State.

People letting them loose once they grow too large? Again, this happens everywhere. It's not like only Florida has all the irresponsible reptile keepers.

I believe what you are alluding to is that non-native exotic herps in general can survive a little better in southernmost Florida (not the entire state...not the southern "half" of the state...), than other parts of the U.S. Another topic altogether, but it has nothing to do with Florida having a larger demographic of reptile keepers who like to keep large snakes and lizards, or a higher population of irresponsible keepers.

Actually people releasing snakes and such in Florida has caused SERIOUS problems, not like anywhere else in the country, certain pythons are overwhelming the native species, and overpopulating the area causing them to hunt for food in uncommon areas, aka cities, and there have been reports (not sure of the validity of them) of some of these snakes eating children.

(10-22-2012 08:03 AM)Spn785 Wrote:  

(10-22-2012 07:17 AM)StudentoftheReptile Wrote:  

(10-22-2012 01:32 AM)Tortus Wrote:  I hear you, but I also think that many don't know how big sulcatatas get. We hear so many reports of "stray" sulcatas found wandering around the neighborhood. I have to wonder if some people just let them loose when they get too big to handle.

I know that happens a lot with reptiles. Snakes and monitors in particular. This is a huge problem in Florida. They're cute and cheap as hell as babies, but they grow up big.

What exactly is a big problem in Florida? People buying them on impulse as babies, or that people let them loose when they get too big?

Either way, your statement isn't entirely accurate. People buy big snakes and big lizards and big tortoises all over the country just as frequently as they do in Florida. Believe me, the appeal for large reptiles is not exclusive to citizens of the Sunshine State.

People letting them loose once they grow too large? Again, this happens everywhere. It's not like only Florida has all the irresponsible reptile keepers.

I believe what you are alluding to is that non-native exotic herps in general can survive a little better in southernmost Florida (not the entire state...not the southern "half" of the state...), than other parts of the U.S. Another topic altogether, but it has nothing to do with Florida having a larger demographic of reptile keepers who like to keep large snakes and lizards, or a higher population of irresponsible keepers.

Actually people releasing snakes and such in Florida has caused SERIOUS problems, not like anywhere else in the country, certain pythons are overwhelming the native species, and overpopulating the area causing them to hunt for food in uncommon areas, aka cities, and there have been reports (not sure of the validity of them) of some of these snakes eating children.

I think Tortus was probably talking about the fact that released exotics are more likely to survive a Florida winter, thus leading to areas with breeding populations that decimate native wildlife, like in the everglades. There are irresponsible breeders and buyers everywhere. I don't think Florida is special in that respect.

I've never heard of a case in FL where a large snake ate a child... ???

(10-22-2012 08:03 AM)Spn785 Wrote:  Actually people releasing snakes and such in Florida has caused SERIOUS problems, not like anywhere else in the country, certain pythons are overwhelming the native species, and overpopulating the area causing them to hunt for food in uncommon areas, aka cities, and there have been reports (not sure of the validity of them) of some of these snakes eating children.

Someone needs to do their homework, get their facts straight, and not rely to the news so much.
-----

[sigh...]

1.) I never said that the reptiles in question aren't able to survive in southernmost Florida (notice I said survive, not "thrive"...more on that later). My point was their origin.

2.) The majority of the non-native python population have been traced back to a group of animals escaped from the destroyed facility of a exotic reptile dealer during Hurricane Andrew. There is ample evidence that supports this. The pythons have been there for 20 years. True, there likely has been the odd intentionally-released pet here and there, but in order to become an established population of breeding animals?...no no, it would take a LOT of released pets to do that. I've rehashed the points many times on several threads before. I can provide you references and links if you wish, as not to clutter up this thread any more than need more with things not necessarily pertaining to the original topic.

Now these "SERIOUS" problems you mention:

3.) the pythons are have only been documented to the 3 southernmost counties of Florida (Collier, Monroe & Miami-Dade). Look on a map, and see exactly how much of the state those 3 counties represent. Not half, not a quarter, not even 20%. The northernmost python specimen they have found was the skinniest, poorest excuse of a python any of the license hunters had ever seen (and these are experienced reptile folks, a couple used to be Burmese python breeders). These snakes are not thriving, and there are certainly not "hundreds of thousands" of them like the media would have us all to believe. Again, I can explain this all out further to you in private, if you are genuinely interested in learning more about a subject you clearly know very little about. Bottom line: Why aren't they found farther north? Because they cannot survive the cold winters beyond those 3 counties.

4.) "Overwhelming native species" - Hardly. Yes, they do prey upon native fauna, but these are not invincible monsters. Any predator in southern Florida that typical eats snakes will just as happily munch on baby pythons as they will any other snake. Birds of prey, alligators, turtles, etc., they take care of a lot. Even a fullgrown python is a poor match for an adult gator, which routinely eats deer, 5-6 rattlesnakes, cottonmouths, etc. Once more, I can elaborate more in private. Also, these snakes also have to contend with disease and parasites, too. Like I said, these pythons do not have it on easy street in the Glades.

And people have a very limited knowledge on how some native species populations naturally ebb and flow. The decrease of some prey animals like rabbits and deer statewide have little to do with a handful of pythons in 3 counties.

5.) "causing them to hunt for food in uncommon areas, aka cities," - References? There has been no documentation that these snakes are actively venturing out of the Everglades to hunt in urban areas. Don't believe what you watch on Animal Planet.

6.) "there have been reports (not sure of the validity of them) of some of these snakes eating children." - This is a clear case of people running their mouth without getting the facts. Case-in-point, you even said yourself "not sure of the validity of them"....so why post something so questionable if you can't even validate whether it's not a complete load of hogwash?!

For your information, there was ONE case of a python killing a child in Florida in 2009. Here are the facts:
- it was a CAPTIVE pet snake, not a feral specimen that slithered into the house from the swamps
- the snake was being kept illegally without the required permitation (as per the state of Florida dictates for giant constrictors at that time)
- likewise, the snake was not being house properly in an escape-proof enclosure, as it should have been

Horrible situation, and a terribly tragedy, no doubt. A bittersweet victory was that the little girl's guardians (her mother & the live-in BF) were prosecuted and imprisoned for their crime. Yes, one child was killed by a python...but to make the insinuation that these snakes are going to take over suburbia and gobble up every toddler and toy poodle in sight is a little extreme.

---

Sorry, if I harp on this subject a lot...I just am very passionate about it, and feel very strongly that misinformation from ignorant people (no matter how well intentioned) is just as harmful and damaging to this hobby we share as the blasted pythons in the Florida themselves.

It is why I ALWAYS advocate....stop watching Animal Planet. Stop watching the bloody news, and get your darn facts straight before you spout off crap that simply is not true.

(10-22-2012 07:17 AM)StudentoftheReptile Wrote:  What exactly is a big problem in Florida? People buying them on impulse as babies, or that people let them loose when they get too big?

Either way, your statement isn't entirely accurate. People buy big snakes and big lizards and big tortoises all over the country just as frequently as they do in Florida. Believe me, the appeal for large reptiles is not exclusive to citizens of the Sunshine State.

People letting them loose once they grow too large? Again, this happens everywhere. It's not like only Florida has all the irresponsible reptile keepers.

I believe what you are alluding to is that non-native exotic herps in general can survive a little better in southernmost Florida (not the entire state...not the southern "half" of the state...), than other parts of the U.S. Another topic altogether, but it has nothing to do with Florida having a larger demographic of reptile keepers who like to keep large snakes and lizards, or a higher population of irresponsible keepers.

Dude, I thought this was common knowledge by now. Burmese pythons and monitors have set up feral populations in Florida. They're eating people's pets. There are tasks forces that specialize in eradicating them, but that will never happen since they've already established themselves.

Of course people letting herps loose in cooler environments make no difference since the animals can't survive there. You seem to be blowing a simple statement way out of proportion.

(10-22-2012 10:06 AM)Tortus Wrote:  Dude, I thought this was common knowledge by know. Burmese pythons and monitors have set up feral populations in Florida. They're eating people's pets. There are tasks forces that specialize in eradicating them, but that will never happen since they've already established themselves.

Read my previous post. I am acutely aware of all you speak of, probably more knowledgeable about the subject than you are.

Quote:Burmese pythons and monitors have set up feral populations in Florida.

Note: the three southernmost counties, not the entire state.

Quote:They're eating people's pets.

Provide documentation please. The cases of pythons (feral or otherwise) eating other house pets are very few and far between, and not much more common than any other southern state.

Quote:There are tasks forces that specialize in eradicating them,

Indeed. Three people to be exact: Shawn Heflick, Greg Graziani and Michael Cole lead this task force. They can tell you that the actual population of pythons in Florida is grossly exaggerated by the media and AR groups.

Quote:but that will never happen since they've already established themselves.

True, the pythons may never truly be eradicated 100%, but between the licensed python hunter initiative and Mother nature, they are getting knocked back. As I mentioned before, these snakes are not thriving very well down there. They are barely surviving. Every extremely "big freeze" Florida gets, knocks back the population back a little further.

LOL....what's funny is that vacationers and tourists flock to the Everglades, chartering airboat guides to take them out into the swamps in hopes to see the giant invasive pythons they always see on Animal Planet. They are often disappointed. They see plenty of alligators, and other native wildlife, but rarely any pythons. This is observed by the python hunters and by many air boat charters and other outfits that frequent the park. If these pythons are such a huge, horrible problem, and they're gobbling up everything in sight....why don't people see more of them?