It is true the random individual isnt the problem though through us as a group could help to reduce the chances of hybrids being produced by informing people who come here looking for information. Of course we can't tell them what to do but we can inform them of the consequences of their actions (just like when we inform people of basic husbandry). There are groups like the herpetologist's league that people condemn hybridizing. People belonging to it are not allowed to reproduce mutations and selectively breed or hybridize if found to do so they are expelled. Though sense it is a professional society it doesn't really apply to most people. Unfortunately there aren't really any equivalents (that I can think of) that apply to the general public.

I saw that ad too and was curious since I keep an ornate and a TTBT, the latter of whom I am sure is a TTBTxEBT cross though was not sold as such (but that's another matter). I don't recall seeing anything on the ad or the website about what kind of a hybrid it was or whether or not it was bred intentionally or not. They were also asking a lot less money for the hybrids. I think your request to boycott in this particular sale is a bit extreme, given the lack of information. It wouldn't make sense from a business stand point to intentionally create a cross and then sell the babies for less than purebreds.

I'd hate to think what might happen to offspring of accidental breedings if no one were willing to keep hybrids.

This is the ad I'm talking about. They where intentionally bred.
FLORIDA x ORNATE BOX TURTLE BABIES - UNDERGROUND STOCK - BRED FROM OUR FINEST ANIMALS

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CAPTIVE BRED HERE AT UNDERGROUND
THESE WERE BRED FROM A FEW OF OUR SELECT STAND OUT ORANTES AND FLORIDAS
GORGEOUS BRIGHT COLOR WITH EXTREMELY CLEAN SPOTTING AND PATTERN
EATING EVERYTHING OFFERED! BOX TURTLE DIET, KRILL, CRICKETS, FRESH GREENS
ONLY $125 EACH!

Unfortunately as this sounds the production of hybrids posses a threat to the captive populations of both species. As these species are both in trouble (declining to endangered depending on location) the hybrids should be isolated from other box turtles and not sold. This is because of the facts that often when people get tired of a "pet" they give them away,sell them or release them and in the first two cases often don't tell the people who receive them they are hybrids. This happens with fish all the time. Though some people would say they should be destroyed I don't think they should.

(09-25-2012 07:11 AM)Saloli Wrote:  This is the ad I'm talking about. They where intentionally bred.
FLORIDA x ORNATE BOX TURTLE BABIES - UNDERGROUND STOCK - BRED FROM OUR FINEST ANIMALS

--
CAPTIVE BRED HERE AT UNDERGROUND
THESE WERE BRED FROM A FEW OF OUR SELECT STAND OUT ORANTES AND FLORIDAS
GORGEOUS BRIGHT COLOR WITH EXTREMELY CLEAN SPOTTING AND PATTERN
EATING EVERYTHING OFFERED! BOX TURTLE DIET, KRILL, CRICKETS, FRESH GREENS
ONLY $125 EACH!

Unfortunately as this sounds

I really don't get it. These guys are pretty knowledgable, and have a good reputation. The only reason for them to do this , probaby, is because they can't sell pure floridas, because they are in that state. What I can't understand is why not just breed ornates? At least, though, they are letting people know that they are crosses, I'm sure they could simply market them as ornates.

By the way if your turtle is a natural cross between a ttbt and an ebt it's species name would be Terrapene carolina without subspecies designation (just thought you might want to know). if you know where you turtle's geographic origin is that might tell you if it is an intergrade.

actually they could sell flabts just not to customers in the state.
in either case it is just stupidity

(09-20-2012 10:54 AM)Saloli Wrote:  Though as a side note if someone has a colony of turtles from the same intergrade zone then they should maintain them as they are part of the genetic diversity in the wild. Though they should be labeled as such not passed off as one of the subspecies.

I've been thinking about this passage for the past couple days. If I go to a part of the US where the range of Terrapene carolina carolina overlaps that of T. carolina triunguis, am I going to find an entire population of intergrades? I don't think so. I think I'll find mostly easterns and three-toeds, with some intergrades mixed in. Isn't that right?

Depends on the dominant male in the area. It may also depend on the male that meets the most females.

GeoTerraTestudo Wrote:I've been thinking about this passage for the past couple days. If I go to a part of the US where the range of Terrapene carolina carolina overlaps that of T. carolina triunguis, am I going to find an entire population of intergrades? I don't think so. I think I'll find mostly easterns and three-toeds, with some intergrades mixed in. Isn't that right?

Actually in most area there will be mostly intergrades where the ranges overlap. Then there is the area of extensive inter gradation in which none can be assigned to subspecies.

(09-26-2012 09:51 AM)Saloli Wrote:  

GeoTerraTestudo Wrote:I've been thinking about this passage for the past couple days. If I go to a part of the US where the range of Terrapene carolina carolina overlaps that of T. carolina triunguis, am I going to find an entire population of intergrades? I don't think so. I think I'll find mostly easterns and three-toeds, with some intergrades mixed in. Isn't that right?

Actually in most area there will be mostly intergrades where the ranges overlap. Then there is the area of extensive inter gradation in which none can be assigned to subspecies.

Oh, wow. So those populations should be conserved as such. They're not just mixes. They are their own kind of box turtle.

So, does that mean that crossing an eastern with a three-toed in captivity, for example, does not actually produce an intergrade? If intergrades are their own kind of box turtle found in the wild, then a subspecies cross in captivity would be a cross but not an intergrade, right?

There is a difference between the technical sense of the word, and the natural application.

Yes, a cross between a California king snake and an Eastern kingsnake would technically considered an intergrade, since both within the species of Lampropeltis getula. However, their ranges do not overlap, so natural intergrades do not occur. Any crossings would be deliberate pairings in captivity.

Then you have "natural" intergradation, such as the aforementioned box turtle crossings. Since we're talking about two sub-species crossing, there really isn't a sub-sub-species distinction (or is there?), so we just call this a naturally-occurring intergrade within the species.

But yes I agree with GTT; IF the naturally-occurring intergrade is common enough within a particular area/locale, then it warrants preservation IMHO.

GeoTerraTestudo Wrote:Oh, wow. So those populations should be conserved as such. They're not just mixes. They are their own kind of box turtle.

So, does that mean that crossing an eastern with a three-toed in captivity, for example, does not actually produce an intergrade? If intergrades are their own kind of box turtle found in the wild, then a subspecies cross in captivity would be a cross but not an intergrade, right?

A cross done either in captivity or in a place where the subspecies don't meet naturally would be an intraspecies ( within species) hybrid. Intergrades are not the result of one or two random matings but of continual mating over very long periods. I also condone the conservation of intergrade populations as I have stated before.

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The cross of the Californian and eastern would be an intraspecies hybrid where as a the area between the desert and Californian king snakes individual would be intergrades. Intergrades are labeled simply genus species exp. Terrapene carolina. Intraspecific hybrids are labeled like interspecific exp. T. carolina carolina X T. c. triunguis.

Fascinating stuff, guys! Okay, so intergrades are special, naturally occurring groups with their own characteristic genotype and phenotype, which is intermediate between two adjacent and formally recognized subspecies. In contrast, a mix between two subspecies is just an artificial cross. To my mind, this means we should preserve subspecies and intergrades, but avoid artificial crossing.

Yes artificial crosses should not be done.

(09-25-2012 07:26 PM)Saloli Wrote:  actually they could sell flabts just not to customers in the state.
in either case it is just stupidity

No they cannot - You can't buy, sell, or trade Florida Box Turtles in Florida. It doesn't matter if that is out of state sales or not. The sale is technically being made in Florida. Only Ornates or Desert Box Turtles are not regulated in Florida......

http://myfwc.com/wildlifehabitats/manage...r-turtles/