I recently saw an ad on either fauna classifieds or king snake advertising hybrid (interspecific) box turtles. I think they were a cross between flabts and obts. I think that intentional hybridizing should be avoided as it represents a threat to the genetic integrity of the captive populations. I ask that you do not purchase hybrids and maybe boycott those who intentionally hybridize for commercial reasons (for the sole purpose of selling them).

Yeeeaahh, this has been discussed a million times on this forum, and probably will continue to on occasion. Most are against it, some are fine with it, a few could care less.

The thing with box turtles is, so many of their areas overlap in the wild, that interbreeding occurs naturally in the wild. Also, I'm not real sure, but I think "hybrid" is mis-used here. I believe the term should be "intergrade."

I don't think Florida BTs and Ornates overlap, though. Taxonomically speaking, I think the crossing would still be an intergrade, but not a naturally-occurring one.

I can understand why you feel this way. Be careful, though. Just because a breeder does NOT hybridize animals doesn't automatically make them a good breeder. For example, in the world of dog breeding, there are reputable breeders, questionable backyard breeders, and horrific puppy mills where the breeding animals are neglected and the offspring are sold sick. Same thing goes for torts. Anyone buying any animal should always, always strive to buy from reputable breeders who take excellent care of their animals, do their best to raise healthy happy babies, and provide care info with their sales. Those are the most important things, IMO. I'm really on the fence about hybridizing, but a boycott doesn't pertain either way, since I get all of my torts "gently used" from rescues and CL.

(09-20-2012 08:52 AM)emysemys Wrote:  The thing with box turtles is, so many of their areas overlap in the wild, that interbreeding occurs naturally in the wild. Also, I'm not real sure, but I think "hybrid" is mis-used here. I believe the term should be "intergrade."

Saloli is right. Although mating may occur between different subspecies in zones of intergradation, different species do not typically hybridize even where they coexist, which is why they're considered different species in the first place.

So, the Carolina box turtle (Terrapene carolina) contains several subspecies, and the ornate box turtle (Terrapene ornata) contains two subspecies, but the Carolina and ornate box turtles are in different species altogether. They coexist in parts of the Great Plains, but they do not really hybridize there. Therefore, they should not be hybridized in captivity, either.

I wouldn't cross different subspecies together, but since this does occur naturally in zones of intergradation, I would argue it's not that bad. However, I agree with Saloli that people should not be hybridizing Carolina and ornate boxies, since they are not even in the same species. To discourage this practice, people should not be buying Carolina x ornate hybrids, either.

emysemys Wrote:The thing with box turtles is, so many of their areas overlap in the wild, that interbreeding occurs naturally in the wild. Also, I'm not real sure, but I think "hybrid" is mis-used here. I believe the term should be "intergrade."

I'm not taking about intergrades ( which by the way only applies to ones in the wild and with in a species). I'm talking about a crossing between species which almost never occurs in the wild because of difference in habitat preference as well as mating rituals.

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GeoTerraTestudo Wrote:Saloli is right. Although mating may occur between different subspecies in zones of intergradation, different species do not typically hybridize even where they coexist, which is why they're considered different species in the first place.

So, the Carolina box turtle (Terrapene carolina) contains several subspecies, and the ornate box turtle (Terrapene ornata) contains two subspecies, but the Carolina and ornate box turtles are in different species altogether. They coexist in parts of the Great Plains, but they do not really hybridize there. Therefore, they should not be hybridized in captivity, either.

I wouldn't cross different subspecies together, but since this does occur naturally in zones of intergradation, I would argue it's not that bad. However, I agree with Saloli that people should not be hybridizing Carolina and ornate boxies, since they are not even in the same species. To discourage this practice, people should not be buying Carolina x ornate hybrids, either.

You see my point if people dont buy them then generally breeders won't breed them. I do believe people should only buy from reputable breeders. Though as a side note if someone has a colony of turtles from the same intergrade zone then they should maintain them as they are part of the genetic diversity in the wild. Though they should be labeled as such not passed off as one of the subspecies.

I think your problem is that this guy will always find a buyer. Those of us who care about our shelled friends are not your target.

(09-22-2012 08:25 PM)fbsmith3 Wrote:  I think your problem is that this guy will always find a buyer. Those of us who care about our shelled friends are not your target.

(09-22-2012 08:25 PM)fbsmith3 Wrote:  I think your problem is that this guy will always find a buyer. Those of us who care about our shelled friends are not your target.

I'm afraid you're right. There's another problem just as big as hybridization, and that's inbreeding. A lot of buyers are willing to pay more for color morphs or albinos than for wildtype. This doesn't make sense either, but unfortunately there is demand for it.

Unfortunately hybridizing and line breeding are problems that are often tied together sort of speak. The cornsnakes, and leopard geckos unfortunately have already had both these done to their species (the captive populations are really a mix of two or more related species not the species they supposedly are). It isn't just my problem it should be anybody who cares about the species or biodiversity in general. I posted here for that reason people who already care about the species are generally more likely to listen the others would be.

(09-23-2012 07:49 AM)Saloli Wrote:  Unfortunately hybridizing and line breeding are problems that are often tied together sort of speak. The cornsnakes, and leopard geckos unfortunately have already had both these done to their species (the captive populations are really a mix of two or more related species not the species they supposedly are). It isn't just my problem it should be anybody who cares about the species or biodiversity in general. I posted here for that reason people who already care about the species are generally more likely to listen the others would be.

Well said. Of course, there's no need to convince me, since I already agree with you. How can others be persuaded, though?

In the pet trade, the unusual pet is the one that causes the most interest, even if it's just fad. Inbreeding, exotic mixes are becoming the norm. I'm not worried about the individual that has a few different varieties in their backyard and they just happen to have a few hatchlings by chance. It's definitely the commercial breeder whose obvious goal is to turn out as many as they can for the most profit that worries the ones who care about the integrity and success of the species.

Well people like me love Three toed box turtles just as they are. They are completely colourless compared to the vivid colors of their cousins.

Personally I see vivid colours where others would miss.

(09-23-2012 03:46 PM)fbsmith3 Wrote:  Well people like me love Three toed box turtles just as they are. They are completely colourless compared to the vivid colors of their cousins.

Personally I see vivid colours where others would miss.

Yep. Three-toed boxies usually don't have patterning on their shells (although some do), but the colors on their limbs and head are still gorgeous.