Closed "Chambers"

RIO'S MOM

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RIO'S MOM

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New question;
With daily oversight of substrate to remove waste.... About how long does one get with substrate (shelf life) before complete vivarium overhaul ?
I'll be using a mix of coco coir, orchid bark, and cypress mulch blend. Have a rock area in warm half of vivarium. I am NOT stratafying the layers for waste processing.

Thoughts? AND, any tips to extend substrate life?
 

Tom

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New question;
With daily oversight of substrate to remove waste.... About how long does one get with substrate (shelf life) before complete vivarium overhaul ?
I'll be using a mix of coco coir, orchid bark, and cypress mulch blend. Have a rock area in warm half of vivarium. I am NOT stratafying the layers for waste processing.

Thoughts? AND, any tips to extend substrate life?

I never replace it unless that tortoise moves out and another is moving in. I just spot clean as needed.
 

RIO'S MOM

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I never replace it unless that tortoise moves out and another is moving in. I just spot clean as needed.

Seriously! Do you have the layers for waste processing, cause I won't be doing that? Just coco coir beneath orchid bark and cypress mulch.
Is this common? I figured overhaul once a month or so. Tell me about your substrate.

I had to put Rio in the chamber yesterday for the first time. Haven't really made it ready yet, but it's too cold outside for him during the day, here in PA, for the first time. Only have JUST finished hydrating the coir and placed a couple large flat rocks for a feeding area. He barely leaves the rocks. He's been living on the deck all summer, with a rock area and a hide and a soaking pool in one area, rugs and deck plants and furniture everywhere else. He seems NOT to like the coir (dirt). He walked through it once, all around, and has retreated to the flat, cleaner rocks since.

What up with that? Have I 'deckstitutionalized' him? LOL

20160810_114416_5_bestshot_resized.jpg

Rio LOVES to MARCH in the rain. I love warm rain, it means I don't have to mist him 4, 5 times that day. He's so funny. He truly marches all over the deck.

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Just one far corner of the deck that Rio called home since rescued.

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☔ MARCH ON ! ☔ I always wondered if the drumming of rain on his hide inspired him. WE DID have a VERY wet summer here, too. Unusually so.
 

Tom

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I use fine grade orchid bark. I think it will work better for a RF because they are so sensitive to shell rot. Its easy to keep the lowers layers damp to increase humidity while the upper layer that is in contact with the plastron stays relatively dry.

I remove poop whenever I see it and I remove any leftover food when I see it. No need to replace the substrate is its not "dirty". Regular soaks also tend to keep poop out of the substrate since most torts will poop in the soak water.
 

RIO'S MOM

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Well,
I use fine grade orchid bark. I think it will work better for a RF because they are so sensitive to shell rot. Its easy to keep the lowers layers damp to increase humidity while the upper layer that is in contact with the plastron stays relatively dry.

I remove poop whenever I see it and I remove any leftover food when I see it. No need to replace the substrate is its not "dirty". Regular soaks also tend to keep poop out of the substrate since most torts will poop in the soak water.
Well, he clearly isn't fond of the coir. He still is keeping himself to the rock surfaces. Thanks bunches. I may repurpose the coir to gardening then. I was hoping to get a warm day today so I could take him out to finish the set up. Not today... I think I will shop vac it out, so he is happier. He clearly doesn't want to be in it. Put him in soak in the sink and get er done, then.

Thank you.

What about pee, no concern, huh ?
 

Tom

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What about pee, no concern, huh ?

Tortoises don't really excrete "pee". When they are well hydrated, they will sometimes dump their water reservoir and refill it with available water, but there really isn't much nitrogenous waste in this material. When they don't have an abundance of water they excrete the white urates that we've all seen. Like with birds. If you are seeing urates, you may need to reevaluate your hydration routine. If not, then you don't need to worry about "pee".
 

RIO'S MOM

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Tortoises don't really excrete "pee". When they are well hydrated, they will sometimes dump their water reservoir and refill it with available water, but there really isn't much nitrogenous waste in this material. When they don't have an abundance of water they excrete the white urates that we've all seen. Like with birds. If you are seeing urates, you may need to reevaluate your hydration routine. If not, then you don't need to worry about "pee".

Thanks, Tom. Never knew this. Haven't asked my Bro about it. Just took it for granted that we all pee. Very interesting. No urates, Rio's a gulper.
 

Lori lawson

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Yes, it is ;) That is my little Black Cherry. She was produced by Redfoot NERD (Terry Kilgore, www.turtletary.com ) I had to have her the moment I saw her because she is just so unusual. Terry has produced a few more of the "black" ones since this one, but she was the first and also the blackest.




Actually, you don't, lol. It would be a NIGHTMARE to heat something that size and keep it humid, lol.

My opinion is that the young babies hide so much anyway, that they don't need as large of an enclosure as a juvenile. Until they reach the size where they feel more "predator proof" it is okay to use a smaller enclosure. For many however, it is just cheaper and easier to start out with the size that you are eventually going to need, rather than doing upgrades and having to keep buying new equipment. I already have all this crap so it is a lot easier for me, lol.

As far as keeping them outside... You could do something like this...

KristinasPictures161.jpg


KristinasPictures162.jpg


KristinasPictures163.jpg


KristinasPictures164.jpg


KristinasPictures166.jpg


It has a lid, too. The lid is hinged, just a wooden frame with more of the wire in it. That is where the "Three Amigos" have stayed since they came to live with me ;)


I see that you have torts. I've been told that they will fight or die. Do you have any problems with that?
 
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Lori lawson

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Yes, it is ;) That is my little Black Cherry. She was produced by Redfoot NERD (Terry Kilgore, www.turtletary.com ) I had to have her the moment I saw her because she is just so unusual. Terry has produced a few more of the "black" ones since this one, but she was the first and also the blackest.




Actually, you don't, lol. It would be a NIGHTMARE to heat something that size and keep it humid, lol.

My opinion is that the young babies hide so much anyway, that they don't need as large of an enclosure as a juvenile. Until they reach the size where they feel more "predator proof" it is okay to use a smaller enclosure. For many however, it is just cheaper and easier to start out with the size that you are eventually going to need, rather than doing upgrades and having to keep buying new equipment. I already have all this crap so it is a lot easier for me, lol.

As far as keeping them outside... You could do something like this...

KristinasPictures161.jpg


KristinasPictures162.jpg


KristinasPictures163.jpg


KristinasPictures164.jpg


KristinasPictures166.jpg


It has a lid, too. The lid is hinged, just a wooden frame with more of the wire in it. That is where the "Three Amigos" have stayed since they came to live with me ;)
What plants do you have in there?
 

Tidgy's Dad

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I see that you have

i see that you have three torts. I've been told that they will fight or die. Do you have any problems with that?
It's pairs that is the biggest problem.
If you have three or more and a large amount of space groups can, sometimes, work.
Also redfoots work better in groups than most other species, it seems.
 

Kaliman1962

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I say that is an excellent educated guess. I would guess (although I lack the observational experience you do and keeping time) maybe even higher. Upper 80s low 90s for ambient heat in the brush atleast. I mean it is not one to be just chilling in the open, not at the top of the food chain.. You focus on bigger species, my focus is on Russian tortoises. Although different environments their are many similar needs when we begin to talk about proper lighting set ups between the species, temps are easy to adjust once you get the right light and infrared combo. I am extremely interested in this.

This lighting set up could be the ideal way to house tortoises indoors in the future, unless I find a way to "filter" infrared from artificial lamps. I am determined.

So you can even generalize that for the average keeper. Instead of buying 100s of dollars in bulbs every year. Spend that money into a well built radiant heat panels and a very nice full spectrum lamp with added UVb. Have them build a closed chamber or open table top with a roof, that is semi enclosed at least.

Place the panels exactly like you did.. I also very much agree that tortoises really don't have much of a temp gradient in the wild . The sun doesn't pick and chose warm and cold spots. You either have shade from brush or you dig a hole to provide shade. Why I have my entire habitat so warm and many places to hide.

I really like that combo though. Your set up makes absolute perfect sense to me.

1x 48 inch full spectrum 5000k tube to provide very good visible light out put so the tortoises can 'see' well.

1x Arcadia 12% HO for UVb and UVa. Hung down at about 20 inches?

And 3 radiant heat panels that heats a tad under 4sq ft of space in a 9 Sqft habitat. So technically the basking "zone" is around 4 Sqft on these panels instead of a measly 8x8 tile from a regular incandescent bulb. (I measured haphazardly, I work at a tile store lol)

Those panels could possibly stop localized heating as bad as the lamps used now provided your tortoises are able to reach proper internal temps. Localized heating of the alpha and beta keratin is responsible for the rapid dehydration I was talking about in the intracellular hydraulics system. The more water is taken from the alpha and beta keratin the more the biology is changed in the proteins, as decreased hydraulics in the cells hinder nutrient transfer which ultimately leads to deficiency.

Localized heating. Severe uneven infrared distribution. And I have distance and multiple lamps to spread out heat and I still saw this still with my camera. Taken 13 minutes after exposed to lamps.

View attachment 131557

You can see the little red spots. Those little red spots are super heated tissues. And do not occur in nature. As the sun does not produce this effect with its water filtered rays. They actually happen to occur mostly in the alpha keratin lines through out the shell, which makes perfect sense since the helixes that make up the alpha keratin are extremely water sensitive because of its open hydrogen bonds. Which can readily be taken by water hungry IRa. And are...

My curiosity is taking thermal images of the habitat to really see how the heat is being distributed and if the panels are creating basking zones of roughly 4sqft or not. And then I want to see how the shell reacts to 'unfiltered' long wave infrared it's being exposed to. If you had water radiant heat panels technically you would be able to put them really close.. Because no alpha and beta keratin would be superheated because the water hungry infrared has already been filtered. Thus making the panels deep core heating panels which would be magnificent.. And the best idea ever.
I'm in illinois too, north subs, what do you do in winter
 

Jason Gamby

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Awesome thread!! So glad I found it. I am going to building an enclosed chamber much like the first picture in Tom's first post. Quick question, what did you line the bottom and first few inches of the sides with? Linoleum? Just curious so that the moist soil doesn't end up rotting the plywood.

Thank you for the replies!

Jason
 

Tidgy's Dad

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Awesome thread!! So glad I found it. I am going to building an enclosed chamber much like the first picture in Tom's first post. Quick question, what did you line the bottom and first few inches of the sides with? Linoleum? Just curious so that the moist soil doesn't end up rotting the plywood.

Thank you for the replies!

Jason
Many people use a plastic liner, something like a shower curtain.
 

Phobi

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This is great information! thank you so much for putting the time into doing all this.
 

ZEROPILOT

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Here's a closed chamber that I used for my babies.
It's something that can be thrown together in an hour or two and can last untill the baby is a year old.
 

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Yvonne G

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Here's my version of a closed chamber:

Closed chamber a.jpg

closed chamber b.jpg

I positioned a sheet of plastic on the table top, then set my light stands on the plastic, then I set the two plastic tubs (baby box turtles on the left and baby leopards on the right) on that. Then I pulled the plastic up and over the light stand. No plastic is touching the lights, so no danger of plastic melting or catching on fire. Then I cut out a servicing hole and taped a piece of plastic sandwich wrap (Saran Wrap) at the top of the hole. Once I'm through adding food and water, I just wet my finger and trace around the plastic sheet's edge, then pull the plastic wrap down and stick it to the wet plastic.

With two tubs under the same plastic, I can position a light over the edge where the two tubs touch each other, and only have to use one light that way.

It's not very pretty, but it works.
 

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