Possibly the factor of varying food consumption in individuals may explain this.
Does diet contribute to pyramiding.
- Thread starter Anyfoot
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Interesting
The more dominant ones DO get the best and the most of what's there.
Outdoors in a damp warm humid burrow in AZ. They can't survive topside on 118+ degree days.
Indoor raised babies in HI or FL from dry enclosures with dry substrate under carapace desiccating lamps. Saw that in Louisiana too.
This last hurdle has been vexing me for years now. Raise 10 clutch mates together in the same enclosure with the same diet and same conditions, and one or two will show some pyramiding. Not a lot, but some. Why???
My other problem is that the growth on all of mine turns terrible whenever I move them outside full time, even thought they have 50-70% humidity in their night boxes. Moving to FL is not an option right now...
I do not feel diet contributes at all. I've just had too many decades of trying every diet imaginable, along with slow growth, vs fast growth. I tried commercial pellet only, vs never feed them anything - just let them graze on the grass and weeds in their large enclosure. High Protein, low protein. Everything! Nothing changed the way they pyramided at all.
I do believe genetics plays a role in it though. Just as some people have strong, thick hair, and some, strong, some weak fingernails. some people's fingernails tend to curl more than others that grow flatter. Also, choice of basking frequency, and choice of favored hides probably play a role. But those are all minor individual variances. If we keep the keratin from drying out, as we've learned from @Tom 's definitive experiments, we will stop the more objectionable pyramiding that is unique to poorly raised captives.
I do believe it is more the external hydration that is key. Drinking water and soaks a must for great health and hydration. Keeping the carapace from drying - humidity, misting, hides that hold humidity, etc.- key for pyramiding.
At what size/age do you put yours outside full time?
Have you got any thoughts/theories at all regarding the last hurdle?
Most move outside full time when they outgrow their indoor 4x8' chambers. Usually when they tortoises are 8-10". I get nice beautiful smooth growth right up to that point and then BLAH!!! Its really odd too because at 6" they spend most of the most days outside in the dry air, but sleep in their closed chambers. When they move outside full time, they simply sleep in their 4x8' night box with moderate humidity and similar temps, instead of their indoor closed chamber with a little higher humidity. Its really not that much of a change, but it has a huge effect on their growth and appearance.
I've given this last hurdle a lot of thought, and I don't have a solution yet.
I actually have had the experience opposite to @Tom when moving mine outside. I believe both Tom and I move them outside about the same size with more extended outside time starting at 4-6" and full time 8-10". My experience was always using closed chambers indoors, but no humidity. The first decade with sulcatas was in the Pleasanton area of California with a lot of marine influence and always evening humidity. I also always have had extremely well planted and well watered enclosures. Others seem to have problems with their enclosure looking more barren from overgrazing by the sulcatas. Mine did not do that. I did notice that once outside, they always loved to spend lots of time pushed under bushes and wet clumps of grass. I believe that is what allowed mine to find their own humidity, despite my own humidity ignorance back then.
So I think the nighttime humidity of a well planted enclosure always benefited mine. Evening and overnight dew is greatly enhanced by plant growth.
Here is a picture of my tortoise enclosure mid summer that I had for 17 years prior to my last move 3 years ago.
It would be ideal if diet wasn't playing a role in pyramiding at all. As long as the nutrition levels are met then where ever keepers live in the world diet wouldn't be an issue. For example, some keepers can't access mushrooms or weeds. I struggle getting papaya. Obviously diet still needs to be within the menu of the individual species as well.
After this thread I'm veering away from diet. I think Tom hit the nail on the head with correct conditions, you can introduce good foods in bad conditions and force pyramiding, you will struggle to get a tortoise to pyramiding if conditions are perfect. It's not until man is introduced that the diet to conditions is messed up, or on rare occasions in the wild when freak weather systems show up.
I'm thinking we haven't got the conditions constant enough. I really do think we need to look at the UVB more. It's the one thing we all ignore, they need UVB no matter what is our opinion. Could the UV spectrum be drying them out. I have some babies now without a UVB light and no heat source near them. They are constantly a dull matt color. They are never drying out, the high humidity is not allowing them to dry out. I know it's dangerous what I'm doing and fully aware of the consequences if it goes pear shaped. If babies hide away in the wild at some point of their life they must come out into the incandescent sun light. At what point is that I ask myself. 6 months, 1 yr, 2yrs. If someone(like Tom mentioned) puts there's outside too early and they started pyramiding then we know at that age or size it's too early for that species. I know at 6" or 3yrs old redfoots will carry on growing smooth when exposed to sunlight.
BTW I'm giving my no UVB hatchlings natural bugs in hope that's covering the D3 issue. Or maybe they have enough D3 in storage to last them the 'hide away' period of their lives. If in the wild they don't grow as fast, maybe there is sufficient storage of D3 to get them through 'hide away' stage, but in fast growing captivity there is not enough, this would also imply age is priority over size for them to be exposed to the sun's heat.
Then again I could be way off the mark. We don't know unless we try.
After this thread I'm veering away from diet. I think Tom hit the nail on the head with correct conditions, you can introduce good foods in bad conditions and force pyramiding, you will struggle to get a tortoise to pyramiding if conditions are perfect. It's not until man is introduced that the diet to conditions is messed up, or on rare occasions in the wild when freak weather systems show up.
I'm thinking we haven't got the conditions constant enough. I really do think we need to look at the UVB more. It's the one thing we all ignore, they need UVB no matter what is our opinion. Could the UV spectrum be drying them out. I have some babies now without a UVB light and no heat source near them. They are constantly a dull matt color. They are never drying out, the high humidity is not allowing them to dry out. I know it's dangerous what I'm doing and fully aware of the consequences if it goes pear shaped. If babies hide away in the wild at some point of their life they must come out into the incandescent sun light. At what point is that I ask myself. 6 months, 1 yr, 2yrs. If someone(like Tom mentioned) puts there's outside too early and they started pyramiding then we know at that age or size it's too early for that species. I know at 6" or 3yrs old redfoots will carry on growing smooth when exposed to sunlight.
BTW I'm giving my no UVB hatchlings natural bugs in hope that's covering the D3 issue. Or maybe they have enough D3 in storage to last them the 'hide away' period of their lives. If in the wild they don't grow as fast, maybe there is sufficient storage of D3 to get them through 'hide away' stage, but in fast growing captivity there is not enough, this would also imply age is priority over size for them to be exposed to the sun's heat.
Then again I could be way off the mark. We don't know unless we try.
Mmm, I did not expect you 2 to say 8-10".
I know it will vary, but on average how old are sullies at that size?
I know it will vary, but on average how old are sullies at that size?
Craig
There is so much more to UV light than just UVB and D3 production. In natural sunlight, over 95% of the UV is UVA. UVA has definitely been shown with many, many species of animals of all types to be necessary for activity, levels, wellness, ability to recover quick from injury or illness, breeding activity, etc, etc, etc. by providing dietary D3, you are addressing the issue of possible MBD and calcium absorption, but don't miss the far wider reaching benefits of UVA.
Also, I am not trying to split hairs, but there is a big difference to sunlight vs. incandescent light. Incandescent light is light produced by an electrical current put through a thin metallic filament, heating it to where it is so hot it emits light - and a very different part, and distribution of "light" than sunlight. And that will vary depending upon the type of material used, type of glass used, and temperature of the filament.
UV light could effect keratin very well. It certainly has the most major effect of aging on our skin, and hair. However, I believe pyramiding is more of a quicker effect of the drying of the newly forming keratin too quickly. UV exposure is more long term unless WAY TOO strong. So I think looking more in the direction of IR - the other end of the spectrum - is more plausibly a factor. IR is heating and drying. Natural sunlight reaching earth has mostly near-IR and the most drying frequencies have been filtered by the moisture in the atmosphere. Artificial IR even in the near-IR ranges does not have these wavelength of peak water absorption removed by atmospheric filtering, so the moisture in whatever it is illuminated on will have much more effect than it would in sunlight. Now our CHE's emit IR in a range longer than those water absorption wavelengths. More cellular heating value, less water absorption. However, incandescent bulbs do emit most near IR, and in the range of most "natural sunlight" but none of the water absorption wavelengths have been filtered. I think there lies better experiment value! IMO.
What do you all think about Indotestudo and Manouria and how they rarely exhibit pyramiding?
I was typing my reply as Tom was and didn't see his until I posted, so I see we are on the same page there!
Mine are usually in their second year by that size. 8" is normally about 1400-1500g
Don't worry about splitting hairs with me.
I know there is much more to UV than just UVB and D3. My point is, I have 11 hatchlings in an enclosure with only a UVB source, heat comes from within the room they are in. If I spray them, they dry up within an hour.
My new babies without UVB don't dry up. However I am also not providing them with a hide, if they want security they must dig in under the moss, which they do. Maybe because they spend so much time under moist moss it takes longer for them to dry, well actually they are not drying because they are back in the moss before they have time to dry. There is 2 identical set ups, tomorrow (should have been today) I'm putting a UVB light over one of the set ups as a comparison.
I meant desiccating not incandescent. I'm good at English literature, have you noticed.
. Could have played the old spell check card but I'm to honest.
My take on that would be that it is the non-hibernating, active baskers, the more grassland, savanna type species that are the most prone. Those are the ones that are sold as "desert" or "dry" species. People look at their "natural ranges" and incorrectly conclude they need dry conditions. These tortoises in their natural range have to find more humid places in a dry landscape as part of their survival mechanism. The more "forest type" species are in a naturally more humid environment to begin with. It is not tough for them to find their humid niche in their environment. Other than redfooted, the species you mention are not as common and I would guess more experienced and learned keepers have these types. Since they come from more "forest" environments, when purchased, the advice is much more humidity driven.
Incandescent vs desiccating - makes perfect sense!Don't worry about splitting hairs with me.
I know there is much more to UV than just UVB and D3. My point is, I have 11 hatchlings in an enclosure with only a UVB source, heat comes from within the room they are in. If I spray them, they dry up within an hour.
My new babies without UVB don't dry up. However I am also not providing them with a hide, if they want security they must dig in under the moss, which they do. Maybe because they spend so much time under moist moss it takes longer for them to dry, well actually they are not drying because they are back in the moss before they have time to dry. There is 2 identical set ups, tomorrow (should have been today) I'm putting a UVB light over one of the set ups as a comparison.
I meant desiccating not incandescent. I'm good at English literature, have you noticed.
I guess my point was in great part to reflect on the value of UVA. So when you say you are providing no UVB to a group - most all UVB sources we use are also providing far more UVA than UVB, and nothing else we illuminate enclosures with provides full-range UVA. Taking away the UVB is taking away the more widely valuable UVA. ??
What's the diet of these 2 species. How do they live, in forests or out in the open?
Homeana live in forests, eat high protein levels and I've never seen a pyramided one yet.
I see what you are saying now. I was under the impression I am still providing UVA via my led lights and the natural light coming through the windows. It's not dark in the enclosure what so ever.
Diet is huge...just as important as proper environment...while what surrounds is important-- what is consumed is equally...along with many other factors that we simply can not put into some simple fix formula....try to offer as many micro climates for the tortoise to access on free will, from dry and cool to warm and humid and don't forget the dry basking spot that the tortoise can go to and fro at will...along with food items that are good for them as well as a slip in of some that are just good TO them....after all, well being is not simply an outwardly smooth shell but also to allow some satisfaction that allows an overall well being.
The diet and habitat is very similar to homeana. What I find perplexing is how some of the other species like sulcatas and leopards are raised under very precise and humid conditions, yet still have some degree of pyramiding. I raise my forstenii with somewhat dry substrate yet with high air humidity, due to the fact that they are prone to shell rot as hatchlings. I have never seen a pyramided forstenii. Mine grow extremely fast but perfectly smooth. Could this lend evidence to the genetic factor?
If started correctly, that is 12-18 months old.
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