pyramided VS. normal

[emysemys]

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When I posted pyramided cross sections on a previous thread it was argued that the pictures didn't show the same area of shell, so Don Williams has sent me some new pictures to use. The pictures show the very same area first a normal shell, then a pyramided shell. I'm also including a link to an article recently published by the Tortoise Trust and written by Andy and Nadine Highfield, and some links to their forum where they talk about it.

Normal cross-section at edge of carapace:



Pyramided cross-section at edge of carapace:


Edge of a normal shell:


edge of a pyramided shell:


http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/pyramiding.html
http://www.tortoisetrust.org/photos/spainhabitat.html
http://www.tortoisetrustforum.org/viewto...f=5&t=4746
http://www.tortoisetrustforum.org/viewto...f=5&t=4839

Yvonne G.

[Len]

Yvonne, thanks for posting this, very interesting. Len

[Marty333]

pyramided shells look more brittle with all the air bubbles that i see.

[Balboa]

Wow, thanks Yvonne.
Newb Comments here, but yes, that seems to be a case of MBD, and I think that was at issue before, was this a tort KNOWN to suffer visible MBD?

Its still hard for me to see the layers clearly, but do I see layers of bone over scute material?

[armandoarturo]

wonderful pictures!
but I have a question...
wouldn't the "pyramid" shell be more like MBD?
im making the comparison with humans..... when we get osteoporosis? you know how the bone gets bubbled inside?
or is it a pyramid mbd shell?
just wondering..

[Balboa]

WOW after reading for a while on those articles I see why he's a tad unpopular (Andy) . Its NOT humidity.... but it is....but its NOT. My studies of a non-burrowing, pyramiding resistant species (my take from keepers of the species) during the dry season showed that they usually only had standard household humidity available in their "humid hides". Great. Good read though.

[terryo]

http://www.tortoisetrust.org/photos/spainhabitat.html So they have found hatchlings in the wild.

[Balboa]

(11-15-2010 11:25 AM)terryo Wrote:  http://www.tortoisetrust.org/photos/spainhabitat.html So they have found hatchlings in the wild.

Yup, as you can imagine, I'm going to be doing more digging into his findings, I only cruised over those posts for now, I see a clear bias in his methods, but that MAY be superficial and some really good data may be present.

Its good to see folks actually doing the fieldwork, something we all talk about, but can't do.

[Annieski]

Thanks Yvonne. Those pic's are very clear. The "BONE" looks the same way in Humans with osteoporosis. The "air-spaces" show the de-mineralization which compromises the strength and rigity of the bone[especially long bones---that bear weight]. I find it interesting that the area of where the scutes cover the bone---look flakey---almost like humans recovering from a bad sunburn. Great pic's and lots of food for thought.

[gummybearpoop]

Thanks Yvonne for sharing

[chairman]

(11-15-2010 11:31 AM)Balboa Wrote:  Yup, as you can imagine, I'm going to be doing more digging into his findings, I only cruised over those posts for now, I see a clear bias in his methods, but that MAY be superficial and some really good data may be present.

Its good to see folks actually doing the fieldwork, something we all talk about, but can't do.

Hmm, the data on that page seems to suggest that, at least for that species, tortoises should be kept warm and "dry" (30% humidity) during the day and cold and "wet" (50-65% humidity) at night. Not exactly a formula that I'd be eager to try out at home.

[Madkins007]

Don't forget that these Spanish tortoises were found and logged outside, not in burrows, etc. Tracking on other babies have shown that they spend several hours a day outside, but still most of the time in the burrows or hides.

It is also only a 14-day 'snapshot', not a season-long average.

I still wish we had a better theory on pyramiding. Unfortunately, there are danged few other species on Earth that grow scutes over wide/broad bones to compare to.

[Nofx]

Interesting pictures, you can clearly see how the shell of the ''sick'' tortoise is more fragile as the one of the good one.

[Balboa]

(11-16-2010 10:22 AM)Madkins007 Wrote:  Don't forget that these Spanish tortoises were found and logged outside, not in burrows, etc. Tracking on other babies have shown that they spend several hours a day outside, but still most of the time in the burrows or hides.

It is also only a 14-day 'snapshot', not a season-long average.

I still wish we had a better theory on pyramiding. Unfortunately, there are danged few other species on Earth that grow scutes over wide/broad bones to compare to.

A little slanted? eh? I liked those pics, see there's a tort in this tiny clump of dead weeds, see, not much humidity there now that i've rustled them around.

Catch the part about them all "wondering" what the tortoise can be eating, with no live vegetation? "Andy Says they just get by on stuff we don't consider edible" or whatever.... I'm thinkin .. BUGS.

LOL

[Madkins007]

Balboa- some studies have also suggested that at least some species can go 6 months or more off the yolk sac.

I think one of the hardest lessons for us humans to remember is that tortoises are masters of living in nearly foodless habitats.